The New Fine Wines

00:00:01: Who's in true you and trying.

00:00:02: are you entering?

00:00:05: Welcome

00:00:06: to just another wine podcast

00:00:10: And it's bedtime stories with Jamie.

00:00:11: good

00:00:13: I'm I'm Jamie Good.

00:00:15: I don't

00:00:16: read.

00:00:16: I remember Lee Harmon.

00:00:17: We all remember our names.

00:00:22: So the topic for today's podcast is around The concept of fine wine.

00:00:27: so in the wine world we have this term that be append to wine, which is fine.

00:00:33: So what does fine wine mean?

00:00:35: What is fine wine?

00:00:36: who gets decide what fine wine?

00:00:38: and more interestingly I think are we seeing the emergence of The new fine wine?

00:00:46: so Doug when i talk about fine wine...what that means?

00:00:50: you know as a veteran wine industry person You know, you've obviously lived with this concept

00:00:57: for a long time.

00:00:57: A veteran wine industry person!

00:00:58: You live there all the time and it's like that.

00:01:00: Seasoned wine person...

00:01:04: In my century-old memory of wine?

00:01:06: Of course when I first started in the wine trade which was in the early nineteen eighties fine wine constituted Bordeaux, Burgundy some Moselle Emmerangau Tuscan wines Bonelo, Super Californians and then later like super Tuscans Barolo.

00:01:31: It's all the classics of certainties a few things like Grange in Australia And yeah...and then Fine Wine became.

00:01:41: I think there became The idea that you could index fine wine according to its price.

00:01:47: So it was something like a Bordeaux Index That people would follow and i suppose writers such as Robert Parker in a way, set pricing and sort of new standard what was considered to be almost the first growth or second-growth on New Gold Crew.

00:02:06: All these things became received knowledge I think.

00:02:10: as someone who is learning about wine those days i just accepted them To Be The Truth!

00:02:14: I didn't accept it...I didn't ever think that I would afford to drink the wines and prove them on my pulses, whether these were the cases.

00:02:28: And then as when I got into more sort of like artisan natural wines i began to think that the wines I thought were the best and most beautiful wines... These are the real fine wines!

00:02:39: They didn't necessarily have to be unobtainable although it seemed to help in a certain extent but they just had to be produced carefully um In small quantities with super farming, and the evidence would always stand in the glass.

00:02:53: And then when you taste it with another person they'd say that's a wonderful beautiful wine.

00:02:58: so fine wine for me was became what's-in-the-eye of the beholder.

00:03:03: not...not once traditionally thought to be fine.

00:03:07: um I'm not sure i like the word fine anyway because I don't know, it's too much of a judgment.

00:03:16: A general judgement is like a hierarchical principle of wine judging whereas what i think about wine so particularly personal and i know you guys probably feel the same It's about what you feel about a particular wine And what value it has for you.

00:03:33: But come back to Jamie's point About The new fine wines.

00:03:37: Is that yeah...a lot Of old certainties are being removed new, ambitious producers who are dedicated to quality.

00:03:51: Well why can't they make the same quality of wines?

00:03:54: If not better than the states that we've always held it to be self-evident?

00:04:01: these were fine wines and I think there's two things about here.

00:04:06: one is a price thing.

00:04:11: be fine if they're expensive because that, They've required their price due to the perception and their rarity And their desirability.

00:04:19: or um are what?

00:04:22: Is it just disregarding price?

00:04:24: other wines in themselves incredible.

00:04:28: What individuals like us feel about the wines The way we respond to them That's what makes them find.

00:04:35: Emily watch your view on the whole concept of fine wine.

00:04:39: What does it mean to you?

00:04:43: I think for me it's wines that have a level of, let say complexity and expression.

00:04:53: Wines that communicate something unique.

00:04:57: maybe...I'm careful but its really difficult to actually articulate without reducing it But i don't want to say polish because it is not about having really polished wines a sophistication to some degree, or maybe complexity that is intriguing and interesting.

00:05:23: I don't know if price point...I understand because most of the things we might assume to be fine wine usually are expensive wines.

00:05:32: however for example like one could argue some first-growth Bordeaux houses not necessarily fine wines.

00:05:38: they're just technically made wines that feel a bit generic sometimes.

00:05:46: But you know if I think of I don't know very like one of my favorite Barolo producers and in a good vintage like fine wine wines that i Think um, but leave me to contemplate over.

00:05:58: That leave yeah this resonance to them?

00:06:02: I Don't know.

00:06:02: If I could articulate it further without just sounding A little bit wanky And then maybe a Little bit textbook I think I would distinguish Like we're gonna talk about that right About This idea of fine wine.

00:06:13: Like, I think when somebody talks to me about fine wine in parenthesis... ...I think that sometimes we have a different understanding of what i like or would consider a fine wine versus What?

00:06:24: I believe the general public Or The General Wine Trade!

00:06:30: You know almost like WSET Diploma slash MS student might Consider A Fine Wine I think there would maybe be a Venn Diagram where they could some wines that overlap into my understanding of fine wine, but we'd have really different expectations and understand what it is.

00:06:52: Like Doug said this historic idea was very much defined by critics but also this sommelier wine club community of like, I mean it was almost predictable that you're like okay i'm gonna go to a west end hotel and then there's that wine list where... There is the Dom Perignon.

00:07:10: The Sir Winston Churchill.

00:07:11: There are the Salon Champagne all these sort stuff that were ticking off the boxes saying I am a good sommelier and bought those wines in good vingages.

00:07:20: look what have got!

00:07:22: All the Felton Road Peanots.

00:07:23: And its not just that they aren't necessarily good wines.

00:07:27: Well that they're all terrible, but it's just a bit formulaic and I think there is way more interesting stuff out There.

00:07:33: And i mean for example Ekononomu.

00:07:37: I Think cult classic one of the most intriguing producers from Crete in Greece.

00:07:41: Most people have never heard of It But I consider many Of the wines he makes fine wines like.

00:07:47: would That fit into the sommelier or wine journalist Wine writer wine judge view of fine wine?

00:07:53: probably not

00:07:55: its interesting because The best definition of fine wine I heard was a very simple one from Hugh Johnson, which is wines that are worth writing about.

00:08:04: So the most wines you'll come across...

00:08:06: Ah yes

00:08:09: they're good!

00:08:09: They taste like wine but it's-I don't really want to start writing about them.

00:08:13: But then some wines you've come across.

00:08:15: they prompt you to respond.

00:08:17: There's level of interest in them.

00:08:19: but i think that most people's idea of Fine Wine isn't like that.

00:08:21: I think most of it is this legacy Of the English fine wine trade where you've got wine merchants who, you know... Vegas,

00:08:30: Sicily.

00:08:31: Yeah!

00:08:31: You have a certain number of wines that are bought and sold and traded and collected And have as Doug said A value or portion to them because the market Rates them at this level.

00:08:46: This is kind of close club To some extent.

00:08:48: There's been some new entrants like Napa has got some new entrance Australia.

00:08:52: It's got few wineries That were included in it.

00:08:56: but generally speaking it's a very Eurocentric view of wine and its to do with history in tradition.

00:09:03: The good thing about Bordeaux, Bordeau makes some wines that just age really nicely.

00:09:09: It is

00:09:10: the region where the Grand Vain is the main wine for each chateau And often they have hundred hectares.

00:09:16: so their making reasonable quantity of wine each year.

00:09:19: taste those wines, talk about those wines.

00:09:21: Trade does wines.

00:09:23: so they have a value and you know people clap them and actually invest in them because there's enough of that turnover.

00:09:28: Yeah yeah.

00:09:29: So this whole business is fine wine And it's kind like the roster is full.

00:09:35: They're not looking for new producers to join This.

00:09:38: Italy has never really Join this club in the same way.

00:09:41: I mean you've had some interest.

00:09:43: interesting Brunello.

00:09:44: a few years ago The two Tuscans have supertuskens definitely Supertuscans, definitely been that party And they're really good wine some of those supertussians and they age nicely?

00:09:55: And then you you have some borrilloes.

00:09:57: But Borrillo has the same problem as burgundy which is there part at the Club but each producer making twelve wines.

00:10:02: It was something You know.

00:10:03: so it's like just much harder than their major smaller quantity.

00:10:05: So it's much harder to have that sense of what actually worth in that sort of fine wine world.

00:10:13: You know.

00:10:13: and the other thing is these wines, they're fine wines kind of are defined by the wines... These certain you know wine merchants offer to their private clients And some of these private client salespeople.

00:10:26: who's a super expert on burgundy and bordeaux and champagne and

00:10:31: port.

00:10:33: but then if he talked us about South Africa there lips start trembling because.

00:10:39: And so where do the other wines from outside these classic areas fit in into the fine wine world?

00:10:45: This is a really interesting question.

00:10:47: I think for years, like... The way that Bordeaux started to be made in the eighties and nineties of two thousands and the way that Burgundy's started being made it in the nineties and two thousandths are really nothing to do with history.

00:11:03: go back to the fifties, forties and thirties.

00:11:06: The wines were totally different.

00:11:07: but there's a vogue for structural wines like...the density of wine somehow signifies that it is fine wine because you get more for your money You get more flavour or power More everything.

00:11:22: And I think in terms of fine wine i think thats complete fallacy.

00:11:26: That we've fallen in love with a snapshot Of winemaking at certain time which was quite interventionist valued New Oak, valued alcohol, valued late rich ripe fruit.

00:11:39: But actually can find why not be as much wines which have less colour, wines that are prettier.

00:11:49: we cannot mention the sort of modern folk for loving wines from the Jura but even red wines and great red wines in the Jury.

00:12:00: It's the absence of what they have which is makes them beautiful and charming an unusual And perhaps we should value more.

00:12:06: The unorthodox.

00:12:08: That's what makes him fine because it's unique not these copycat wines Made, there could be from California or that could be for Bordeaux.

00:12:16: They could be some Australia.

00:12:18: I'm not denying that any.

00:12:20: anything is not on this same level.

00:12:21: i'm just saying you'd find a difficult to distinguish between the styles made by endologists around the world.

00:12:31: And there's often one or two endologists who are really setting the standards and people buying their wines because they feel that have value, what Jamie said, tradable commodities not ready for drinking.

00:12:45: but we're interested in wine which gives immense pleasure to have this inherent sense of beauty wonderfully farmed grapes and made with sort of sympathy, someone listening to the wine.

00:13:00: And someone really trying to express the terroir.

00:13:03: when I think without terroire you know fine wine is meaningless.

00:13:06: it's just like a manufactured product for purpose whereas if your relating to the terrowar relating to sense or vintage then i think its very meaningful.

00:13:19: any part in world can come into play.

00:13:23: There's a famous book written a few years ago by Janice Robinson about what are the noble grapes?

00:13:30: And there were very few noble grapes, and one of them wasn't Shannon at that time.

00:13:35: You think like how could you write a book without Shannon or Cabernet Frong?

00:13:39: but surely any grape variety made by any producer who really cares about their doing can be capable of greatness in whatever price it comes out.

00:13:52: that is potentially the new fine wine.

00:13:57: So this concept of New Fine Wine, I think it really appeals to me.

00:14:01: It's like we were in this place you know... The wine world developed.

00:14:05: You've got this intersection of expensive collectible wines with a luxury market as well which means there was a market for luxury and i think some sort of wines fit into that luxury market.

00:14:20: so element of this pre-existing, almost historical artifact that these regions became famous.

00:14:29: These regions kind have got into the club and it's not... you know they make quite good wines but are they massively better than other regions in the countries?

00:14:39: And then you've got this expansion with people who really ambition an ability to make interesting wines popping up all over the world whether any region you know, wherever country you go to that makes wine.

00:14:55: You'll find some people who are super ambitious making really cool

00:14:58: things

00:14:59: and so they kind of haven't got the entry ticket for a club or fine wine.

00:15:03: but what we're seeing now is oh I would define as their new fine wine.

00:15:06: So like...for instance We get together The three of us with other people And Emily often initiates these dinners where all bring couple bottles of wine and it's a beautiful experience, but what I'm finding is that we just don't bring those classic fine wines in inverted commas.

00:15:31: We bring things... It's almost

00:15:32: weird when someone brings one isn't it?

00:15:35: Because its like oh!

00:15:36: Oh

00:15:37: there's that!

00:15:38: Its not that we don't believe the greatness of Burgundy or Bordeaux you know it's not that they acknowledge these wines are amazing and fantastic cool things and also maybe stylistically slightly different things, you know I think about our friendship group but most of the people in the wine trade they have a new aesthetic.

00:16:06: And that new aesthetic isn't chasing depth and concentration or boldness.

00:16:11: it's chasing ethereal beauty.

00:16:14: Purity

00:16:15: goes back to actually what is fine.

00:16:18: if we think of a fine fabric is it something that's really thick?

00:16:22: or would you think of something that is more delicate and maybe even lighter to touch?

00:16:27: Well, comes back what I was saying earlier about transparency although this in the previous podcast by the way.

00:16:33: but yeah wines that really show themselves to be what they are.

00:16:37: That sort of singularity we're looking for, and you know a beautiful singularity something that impresses us.

00:16:46: Yeah when I'm with you get together it's amazing how interesting the wines are.

00:16:52: even if you don't like them you think wow they are so much what they are.

00:16:57: whereas i think the more constructed wines as I said earlier there could be...you know why?

00:17:03: making by numbers?

00:17:04: And any amount of money has been thrown at the wine to make it sort of like, give it broad shoulders and a no coffin.

00:17:13: But in the end... It's just an identicate wine.

00:17:17: No matter how much you think that is good Its well made.

00:17:21: That what your saying its well-made.

00:17:22: Well-made doesn't mean its fine.

00:17:25: I think any acknowledges can make the wine properly What grabs your interest.

00:17:33: And i think The more we drink wine..the more were looking We cant get jaded the more we're looking for something which is surprising.

00:17:41: I think going on to your definition or approach, to new fine wine... The one you've got in our glass today definitely is a symbolic winery of that definition.

00:17:52: so it's El Cambril XXI from Camaro G Which now would go into Nevatel Gordo right?

00:18:04: So Basically they reclassified Commander G, Danny and Fernando.

00:18:09: They reclassified their structure.

00:18:12: so Nevalda Gordo is the village.

00:18:14: Yeah but what I'm saying is El Tambaril.

00:18:16: you wouldn't get a current vintage of because it doesn't exist anymore as wine.

00:18:19: It would go into Nevada Gordo.

00:18:21: No

00:18:21: we'd have twenty three.

00:18:22: actually with this I thought

00:18:26: it was called Nevada El Gordo.

00:18:28: No, Nevada is the sort of village level.

00:18:30: so if you think of Burgundy for example You'd have like a Bourgogne Rouge?

00:18:37: You would have a Gèvry Chambretin Premier or premier and you'd have your Grand Crew and El Tamborou will be one of the Grand Crews Like The Five Grand Crew's tiny vineyards which are emblematic incredibly specific terroir.

00:18:55: So this is one of the highest vineyards they work with, around twelve hundred meters I think above sea level, Comenegy standing for ganache.

00:19:05: That's also a coolest spot right?

00:19:06: Yeah yeah you see that the spiciness and the lower alcohol...

00:19:12: This

00:19:12: is beautiful wine isn't it!

00:19:14: It has drinkability, poise, elegance, a bit spicy structure.

00:19:20: This is a complete wine and this sort of wine gets me excited.

00:19:24: I get excited about these as super famous wines, you know?

00:19:29: And i think what's changing now?

00:19:30: there are lots more people getting excited about wines like these.

00:19:33: That's really refreshing because in the past Spain was Spanish fine wine.

00:19:37: it would be like some of the fancy liocas... Oji Pancetrated!

00:19:40: And then Faker

00:19:41: Cecilia

00:19:42: You know God bless them!

00:19:43: Red

00:19:44: wine soup!

00:19:44: Yeah yeah This is kind of okay, but now we're seeing so many exciting things

00:19:51: coming.

00:19:51: this is the antithesis.

00:19:53: I was saying Jamie.

00:19:54: We've got a you've got an event coming up in May where Danny and Fernandes are gonna come over to present grados not just their wines all the new young Grovis.

00:20:04: Can we go?

00:20:05: You're very invited and it's a masterclass.

00:20:09: but, you know they brought out this book called Gredos Calzacata.

00:20:15: It is such a wild beautiful place!

00:20:18: It doesn't look like places where vineyards are.

00:20:20: I mean there may have been vinyards there for under

00:20:22: two years.

00:20:22: A Jurassic Park meets Star Wars.

00:20:24: Oh that's brilliant exactly what it is.

00:20:27: And these wines had been carved after glorious landscape, it's not typical cultured the opposite of Bordeaux.

00:20:38: They love Garnacha Mountain Garnachas like Pinot Noir to them.

00:20:42: so they want to produce wines that have an inflections.

00:20:46: but there is no aggressive inification.

00:20:48: its all in cement or in five hundred litre barrels.

00:20:52: its all old and slow.

00:20:53: Its no punchdowns.

00:20:55: It's infusion winemaking This style of infusion wine making rather than extractive wine-making.

00:21:01: This is the new, these are on The New Great Wines because... ...the depth and pleasure at the same time.

00:21:07: Look at the colour!

00:21:08: Well you can't see it, this does but its light like Pinot Noir Light.

00:21:15: It's shiny as everybody said a high vineyard.

00:21:19: so You could almost taste the altitude And also the minerality granitics, saltiness of quartz or whatever is in the soils just lifts the wine to another level.

00:21:33: I also love their approach to how they talk about the vineyards of like certain ones that have more an Atlantic or Mediterranean influence because of plants growing nearby.

00:21:42: They are quite special mountains and look really different from any other European mountain that i've been to, just one how they visually appear.

00:21:49: but the kind of plant trees you see growing around... delicate hint of caraway in the background like this sort-of sweet aromatic lift that's just there, for me really charming and very typical of Commando G Grenache as well.

00:22:09: Really beautiful!

00:22:11: And isn't it a stunning thing about certain minds?

00:22:14: is they so reflect even these subtle nuances at place which are why growl through wines, and you taste them.

00:22:22: You think yeah they're totally different like the best Pina Noir's but I know people like to say that's a typical San Juliano That's a Typical Proyac or something Like.

00:22:33: what are you talking about?

00:22:34: These vineyards are pretty homogenous.

00:22:36: there isn't like The life in diversity And surely What we value when We're drinking fine wines is Something unique Irreplicable you know, it can only be there that place at time and I think these wines really exemplify them.

00:22:54: Yeah so this is

00:22:56: high altitude infusion granache on the

00:22:57: planet?

00:22:58: It's a good example of how the wine world has changed for the better.

00:23:01: i think now there are enough people who recognise the quality of these wines.

00:23:05: we could happily say they're fine

00:23:07: wine.

00:23:08: And these guys actually were like pioneers because of New Wave Spanish wine, which is super exciting.

00:23:14: So then

00:23:14: kudos to that!

00:23:16: I mean they started in two thousand eight.

00:23:18: who hit a grade off really five ten years ago?

00:23:22: No one you know.

00:23:23: so it's been an epic thing and what I liked about

00:23:26: it.

00:23:27: We had, and bought them in two thousand and

00:23:28: twelve.

00:23:30: Emily you were fine-wined before anyone else

00:23:32: did.

00:23:32: No but David Canyardus is the buyer right.

00:23:34: so then he was like that we're gonna get these next month!

00:23:37: You need to taste them.

00:23:38: i think you're going to love them... And I remember tasting being up.. These are really interesting things....I knew you'd love

00:23:42: him!!

00:23:43: So I was very lucky that I had him knowing my tastes and got to taste em early.....

00:23:48: It's funny how also I mean this quite fun Jamie a few light minded people They decide they love a wine and then it becomes the self-fulfilling prophecy, you know late.

00:23:58: Then other people like another

00:23:59: or you reach critical mass at that point.

00:24:02: Yeah And yeah It's good.

00:24:03: The critics also loved the wines but that doesn't make them want to be it just critic.

00:24:08: sometimes they're like big trail behind.

00:24:11: There are people on the ground a little bit sometimes and there's lot of critics.

00:24:15: I find that they're not willing to go big in a wine until other People have gone big on it.

00:24:18: They

00:24:19: could risk their reputation.

00:24:20: Well, you

00:24:21: know afraid they don't trust their gut You know enough?

00:24:24: And then not prepared to go high on something into.

00:24:27: so though I've seen this all time with new producers That come out but like some times i'd taste.

00:24:30: nothing is amazing.

00:24:31: when I see them The famous critic sometimes look

00:24:33: play down

00:24:35: at all.

00:24:35: yeah no that they'll Like.

00:24:37: ah This wines better you give it ninety three and this is definitely in ninety five or more and you just head your bets because no one's reviewed the wines before.

00:24:47: And I think it was really bad, but ultimately what we see in a wine world is this openness to newcomers who are making really cool wines.

00:24:54: There're enough people prospecting for all of their cool things that they find their way forward then make the critics join them afterwards.

00:25:02: That's what sends the price northwards.

00:25:04: unfortunately When the beauty is to discover a wine before it becomes famous you see a lot of wine.

00:25:12: this because word-of-mouth is really strong.

00:25:14: And then there's such point as like, no, could it say now that says value?

00:25:19: We're going to give the value and suddenly before we know with the wine triples in price becomes less

00:25:27: affordable.".

00:25:27: So what do you think?

00:25:31: are all three of us sold on that being new fine wines other new fine

00:25:36: ones?".

00:25:37: I think whats happened in South Africa has been very interesting because there's lots of producers who have merged in South Africa without necessarily a huge track record.

00:25:46: but then, well Evan Sadi is the most famous.

00:25:48: He started you know making his own wines The Colomelio and Palladius And then the Old Vine series.

00:25:54: Yeah Butch yeah Crissel Hyde Making some amazing wines

00:26:00: Restless River, would you count on

00:26:01: this one?

00:26:02: I think rest is definitely fine wines.

00:26:04: Yeah, so the Sardine was got home and Peter Allen Finneson, Chris Dahlem, Wolf Amazing... And Gabrielle's or

00:26:09: Habadiel's Clouffe Wines have gotten

00:26:13: better and better.

00:26:13: actually they're like with all those shares.

00:26:16: They are on a par with some of the best in Damocene as well and also Dunkin' Savage amazing wines.

00:26:23: You know there's so many really cool things happening in South Africa I don't know, fine wines but it's about other markets.

00:26:32: then the US has been very slow at recognising the best of South African wines.

00:26:36: Really slow because actually there are some really cool things happening here and i've got one that we can taste together!

00:26:42: That is a good segue yeah?

00:26:44: So if you could clear your glass...

00:26:46: I am ashamed to do

00:26:50: this

00:26:52: book!

00:26:53: So this is... Can I wake

00:26:55: him up?

00:26:57: It's made by a producer in Fransjörg, but the grapes come from Swatland.

00:27:04: And this is The Book on Hootskloof- Two Thousand and Twenty Three Cera newly released!

00:27:08: So

00:27:08: it's cero grown on Porcelainberg you said?

00:27:10: So

00:27:10: ninety percent of them are from porcelainburg then ten per cent some other sites here at Swatlands.

00:27:16: And obviously Porcelaineberg makes amazing wines as well under same ownership.

00:27:21: For people that don't know... the hill of Porcelainburg is different to the rest of The Towar and the Swatland.

00:27:26: Yes, it's a special place.

00:27:27: yeah really special Towar.

00:27:29: um And I'm... Is this limestone?

00:27:34: No no limestone.

00:27:35: Why

00:27:35: is it called porcelainberg though or its granite?

00:27:37: what's the soil make up?

00:27:39: that sets out as different?

00:27:40: Good question i don't know.

00:27:42: give the wrong information here, I think it's what i'm seeing.

00:27:45: This is a couple of times and its like a shishty sort of starting soil.

00:27:50: It's more schist than slate that sort but this very interesting place And for me this was one of my most exciting series from South Africa.

00:27:58: So Mark Kent has been making Zera for long time.

00:28:01: He made a famous one in nineteen.

00:28:04: ninety seven.

00:28:06: The Vignard is now car park in Somerset West.

00:28:09: this age beautifully but it's pH four point two like so you shouldn't have aged, but they've aged so nicely.

00:28:14: This ninety seven syrup very famous um But this is obviously from different regions and this one uh From swatland Quite a different style of wine.

00:28:23: when you taste this we're moving in a different direction.

00:28:28: I think if you were to taste this blind You definitely would be heading to northern Rome.

00:28:35: It's difficult for me after the Commando G that has got such purity because it has a little bit of that kind of toffee viscosity I don't really like but i think its stands out more, we've gone from something so transparent.

00:28:46: For what I love about this is there an intensity and focus on freshness, black pepper, olive savouriness... Its rich wine with detail in purpose too!

00:28:59: This is very exciting expression Sarah And this relates quite nicely I think as well.

00:29:05: I mean, weirdly it feels... It's so up definitely and has got a little bit of the fine bushy sort-of character.

00:29:11: you know those sort of garigy notes.

00:29:15: um i guess its odd that you always think Garnaccia is more alcoholic and powerful or whatever sort middle panel.

00:29:26: but for me the Commando G is more fluid you know elegant and this is like, it's like darker.

00:29:36: It does I agree with Jamie to a certain extent...it does have their sort of hints of the northern road which i think a lot of South African seras are aimed at because they tend end up making what they'd like to drink which is another sort of new fine wine thing.

00:29:58: This current generation or the last generation, this generation they like to drink different wines to their ancestors you know?

00:30:06: They don't have these certainties...they have different things!

00:30:10: They travel a lot more

00:30:11: maybe.

00:30:12: but also the Commando G's are inspired by Southern Rhone wine.

00:30:16: Chaturias Commander, Danny and Fernando always have said that was the best Grenache they ever had.

00:30:23: And it's quite interesting.

00:30:28: what we tried to roam inspired wines technically but created in very different styles... I never felt

00:30:37: there were wines with Southern Rhone Grinache other than the grape I mean really.

00:30:44: but Chateau Reyes

00:30:45: is like

00:30:47: very fine.

00:30:47: Oh, yeah But definitely Pino Esk for me like but Reyes

00:30:51: Reyes Chateauneuf Is pino esk?

00:30:54: The Appalachian?

00:30:55: Yeah i don't know.

00:30:56: I mean there's so much that it's different from the terroir It's like entirely different and also Well, yeah the Terroir in the winemaking Back

00:31:07: to our point though just not necessarily a style of comparison.

00:31:12: It's about who gets to join the club and I think that book with Sarah, it is a fine wine for me!

00:31:23: The tambourineal from Commodogy has an insanely fine wine... We are seeing these new entrants but they all deserve to be part need to be ageable.

00:31:43: So with the tambourine, maybe that can age is twenty-one but does it need to know this?

00:31:49: It's like I don't think you've got so much to

00:31:51: lose.

00:31:51: Maybe

00:31:51: mine could a bit of a fetish as well.

00:31:53: This is

00:31:53: so delicious now!

00:31:56: If i had this ,I would open and drink it .

00:31:57: I wouldn't stick away for ten years.

00:32:00: You probably also could ?

00:32:01: You probably COULD !

00:32:02: But I don' t know if there s much on an upside And lot of South African stuff its like...you can age it..but your not getting anything better with ten years in the bottle.

00:32:12: No, what's wrong?

00:32:13: Some of these wines are just ethereal and beautiful especially the lightest style.

00:32:16: ethereal beautiful wines.

00:32:18: this is one of the reasons why I really became came to love natural wine because you're getting an early stage in a wine life something that has all the complexity and layers and wide dynamic range of flavours but beautifully aged wine as often earlier than its youth.

00:32:38: not saying they don't age because natural wines age beautifully.

00:32:41: But it's like, just delivering you an immense pleasure.

00:32:44: It is not like Bordeaux was the joke about Bordeau.

00:32:46: You're trying Bordea and going oh this needs another ten years.

00:32:50: And then next bottle of you say well that should have been drunk ten years ago.

00:32:54: Like we never find

00:32:56: minutes

00:32:56: in the wine life where its actually showing at best Its always talking about could be better or may've being better than past.

00:33:03: Where is drinking window there?

00:33:06: Whereas Riesling is very interesting, it's like Riesing drinks well young and drinks well old.

00:33:11: Really good Rieseling.

00:33:18: It's not just survival but development.

00:33:23: And this the thing about fine wine too.

00:33:25: Obviously the tradition of fine wine has been that in the past people used to sell their wines because unless you sold them they weren't really nice.

00:33:32: That was a very old Bordeaux sort.

00:33:35: way of doing things is you'd have a well-stocked seller and bring out mature wines because they're ethereal, beautiful.

00:33:41: But I think this the shift that we are saying right?

00:33:46: let's say the old like, the two thousand sommelier where they'd be buying this sort of textbook wine that was very typical.

00:33:53: That was made perfectly to fit a box and price point right?

00:33:57: And maybe had the ratings in everything else To shift into new understanding.

00:34:02: we're kind of saying We understand to be fine.

00:34:05: wine today is an idea of singular style like a wine that has this unique quality.

00:34:12: It doesn't necessarily need to be a wine, it's for aging but its'a wine which has this resonance and this remembrance.

00:34:20: you know I need to pay attention to this.

00:34:22: This is really an element

00:34:24: of intrigue.

00:34:25: The Hugh Johnson definition so far the best because whatever we say comes back to us.

00:34:31: Is this wine worth talking about?

00:34:33: And if yes well i think it's fine a really nice way of doing it that gets away from the complexities, what's the market value for wine?

00:34:46: Is there going to increase in value.

00:34:48: You know is it collectible or is tradeable?

00:34:51: and we escape all this by reducing... Does it feel special?

00:34:56: We're at different places where I started working on tasting wines.

00:35:01: so with two or three generations on people would drink and valley red wines white wines were slightly frivolous, basically.

00:35:11: And maybe just having a certain appellation would feel prestigious?

00:35:14: Yeah and yeah!

00:35:16: Basically you know pretty well all Bordeaux as long it was the crew class say... What we valued in these wines is that they move from sort of into decay.

00:35:29: The secondary aromatics at Bordeau and Burgundy.

00:35:33: That's what made the wine great.

00:35:35: They acquired like another level or layer of flavour.

00:35:39: Now, we drink most wines a lot younger and want to drink them younger.

00:35:45: Funny enough I think... well not funny enough but We drink alot more white wine And i'm talking about all us.

00:35:52: The diet has changed.

00:35:54: White wines definitely precede red wines.

00:35:57: Weirdly white wines probably age more interestingly than modern red wines because modern real wines are made for sort of early drinking.

00:36:05: So I think winemaking has changed, people's tastes have changed and of course wine making reflects peoples' taste.

00:36:12: so yeah... Of course there is like a whole different parameter to what we consider fine wines Because.. For me years ago i never considered anything other then a few burgundies to be fine wines.

00:36:27: but Now, in my pantheon a lot of whites would be the fine wines.

00:36:32: They're the ones that stick away.

00:36:33: they are the wines that develop more interestingly around the structure of the acidity and so on.

00:36:41: I don't age them to age them.

00:36:43: i aged them to surprise me To see what there will be like And then always blown away The red wines is... as soon as they die away.. I regret not drinking red wines earlier and that you know.

00:36:57: I can see the colours faded, the fruits faded.

00:37:00: The interest has faded?

00:37:01: And i think why did I do there?

00:37:02: because my perception of them was red wine is going to last longer.

00:37:05: it's a fine wine isn't it?

00:37:07: but actually no!

00:37:10: That's not the case anymore.

00:37:11: those certainties have completely been replaced by new realities...

00:37:19: I mean back in the day as well.

00:37:21: its interesting because we would never even considered orange wine as fine wine Since a while, like there's several orange wines or skin contact whites that would go up.

00:37:32: There is fine wines.

00:37:33: to me they're very special.

00:37:36: I know.

00:37:36: if you consider the work that goes into The Elevage and You Know this sort of seriousness in the age ability then these wines are great wines?

00:37:45: I think critically speaking They're not as highly...they're not highly regarded because their bit has been like Rose's.

00:37:52: well, they're not considered to be important

00:37:56: in any way.

00:37:57: Eric Fifling to Val Rosé, I mean some of the best rosés and well... Some are the best wines that ever drunk in the world

00:38:04: you know?

00:38:04: Well on the other white we drank some phenomenal wines which happen to be rosés And it's like why aren't talking about them in this same breath.

00:38:11: Why do have these steaks...?

00:38:12: Why do we have whites on one side reds on another side and way in the distance rosés & amber wines?

00:38:20: It is ridiculous!

00:38:21: They're all wine And every wine on its merits.

00:38:26: The care and the love you put into making a great wine comes out in the end of the bottle.

00:38:31: We don't need to have the snobbery that we once had.

00:38:34: You know, we don't respect critics and hierarchies In the way we once did.

00:38:38: Most of us... most following generations didn't go... consult with the Bible according to whichever wine critic it was To get there received information.

00:38:50: They make up their own minds basically and hopefully taste will win out.

00:38:54: in the end, it'll democratise wine a lot more so that producers making great wine is South Africa who are off-the-radar.

00:39:02: they all be considered you know to be fantastic producers because there's evidence in the glass.

00:39:09: And then I think one interesting point.

00:39:11: i'm sure we're soon to wrap up but of region, a specific wine that maybe isn't regarded as a fine wine in amongst the nerdy wine community with this new Fine Wine definition or you could perceive potentially being considered as a Fine Wine whether thats region producer, wine

00:39:37: and future.

00:39:38: Well for me one region that strikes me is never been included in Fine Wine before but now it's making some really very cool wines, it's vignon vert in Portugal.

00:39:50: Nice!

00:39:51: So up north of Portugal North of Porto and that sort of like area that joins the Spanish border there are amazing terroirs with some really good grape varieties including some red grape varieties In the right hands are now making some very impressive wines.

00:40:13: I won't produce them, for example... ...I think that's part of your portfolio.

00:40:16: is Afros?

00:40:17: Yes!

00:40:17: You know it's like.

00:40:18: these are really cool wines.

00:40:20: It has been exciting as I was out there in December visiting No November I think late November and visited a bunch of producers And then came away thinking yeah this Some good things here That never you were just not being made in the past.

00:40:35: This region making lot of cheap wine.

00:40:39: And

00:40:40: now that, for me is exciting.

00:40:41: In Portugal it has a lot of pieces.

00:40:44: I think are making wines at very high level but

00:40:47: the market's

00:40:47: still yet to wake up too and... For me thats really exciting.

00:40:54: It's difficult!

00:40:54: I tend look towards cool climate regions because its what i like drinking.

00:41:00: so you know quite recently into Savoia and I think potentially.

00:41:08: I just learned something about mountain wines and the sort of thrilling minerality, and the glacial purity.

00:41:15: But like you want to talk now in the last five years, Sicily is definitely going be a place... And not only one region!

00:41:22: Etna has become, as I would say, the peak mountains of

00:41:26: Sicily.

00:41:26: But Vittoria as well?

00:41:27: Vittorio

00:41:28: where they give fantastic producers amazingly elegant wines for a region that should be you know south of the north of Africa and then Marsala, even the whites.

00:41:39: but I mean obviously there's sweet wines.

00:41:42: But there are Zabibos and Grilloes.

00:41:44: these have fantastic acidity and purity like island wines in their best sense.

00:41:51: so yeah I think Sicily is here now as regarded probably one of the great wine regions.

00:42:00: it's probably like five years.

00:42:02: and now if you say, we talk about the main producers in Sicily from Edna to Vittorio too.

00:42:09: To Marsala.

00:42:10: people have heard of them but they're wines are relatively speaking not that expensive.

00:42:15: yet there some which I've vaunted over into high price bracket.

00:42:21: no one would deny that the wines are incredibly interesting

00:42:26: very nice.

00:42:28: i will throw in the dry wines.

00:42:29: Yes,

00:42:32: what an amazing story happening

00:42:37: there.

00:42:37: Wonderful!

00:42:37: Very nice.

00:42:44: any final thoughts?

00:42:45: I don't know.

00:42:46: like i'm not pro this idea of hierarchy and talking about fine wines but you know everything we talked And I think intuitively when you taste something, that deserves to be considered on the same level as a much more wine with an exalted reputation.

00:43:08: and i just like this sort of hierarchy or perception.

00:43:15: And sommeliers often are prone to this received wisdom because they think You know what?

00:43:20: I need to list a wine people have heard that has a reputation.

00:43:24: Even the reputation is just a PR reputation, it's not like really about the wine itself.

00:43:29: so I don't want people to sort of consider The provenance Of the wine you know what goes into It?

00:43:36: Why it Is the way it is and also say That fine wines could be Not expensive wines

00:43:41: isn't

00:43:41: there?

00:43:42: Isn't that A wonderful thing?

00:43:43: one Could afford To buy these beautiful bottles.

00:43:47: Very nice Jamie!

00:43:50: I think i concur And I'm so excited about the fact that the world of wine now is much more broad and deeper than it used to be.

00:44:01: And as i said, what prompted me to think about this topic was when we get together with our friends you know We bring so many interesting bottles from different places That all deserve to be in their peer group With very finest wines.

00:44:16: The old wine trade lunch.

00:44:18: You'd have a line up for bottles.

00:44:22: They'll start with the champagne, they go to some white burgundy then maybe a bit of red burgundy.

00:44:26: Then mostly Bordeaux Maybe finish with Saturn or port and it's like that kind of it.

00:44:32: And...and That's so different.

00:44:35: now I mean these wines are fantastic but there is So many wines in their peer group And I kind of find it annoying for the, must be annoying to producers.

00:44:45: they're making truly great wines that are terroir specific and fine an elegant thought-provoking make you feel good about world.

00:44:55: They just not getting anything close at prices or people making mediocre stuff from famous regions.

00:45:00: so that's a frustration.

00:45:03: maybe we don't want these wines become super expensive.

00:45:07: People need to be paid a certain amount for their wines, never to farm properly and take the risks that they do as making something from an agricultural product where you're at the vagaries of nature.

00:45:19: So I think...I'd love to see continued expansion in the wine world so bringing new producers because people are willing to pay more for the wines They can afford to make really interesting wines from different places.

00:45:32: That's exciting.

00:45:34: Well you said the Hugh Johnson quote like fine wine is what you want to write about and then fine wines are what your drink in the end.

00:45:41: So again, you don't have to respect them but you don' t need to like Neil before them

00:45:47: And on that note we'll close this podcast.

00:45:51: You've been listening too Jamie Good

00:45:57: Doug Rigg

00:45:58: and Emily Harmon.

00:45:58: you can find us on Instagram at just another wine podcast.

00:46:01: send us your questions, requests feedback.

00:46:04: we're open to it.

00:46:05: We'd love to hear it until next time Cheers!