Yeasts of Burden

00:00:16: just another wine podcast.

00:00:18: It's been a while since the last one, very busy people Emily especially and Doug of course is busy trying to sell wine to the world.

00:00:26: um...and

00:00:27: I've been traveling quite a lot as well but we're actually together in one place And it's fantastic to be back!

00:00:33: We have got an interesting topic today that first of all will introduce ourselves.

00:00:38: i'm Jamie I am Emily I

00:00:40: am Doug.

00:00:41: Today were going to talk about the topic of microbes And this is such an interesting topic, because without microbes all you've got is grape juice.

00:00:51: So we kind of need them but it's really a very complicated topic.

00:00:57: that were just learning exactly what the roles of these various microbes are doing and there was only in eighteen sixty-three that Pasteur worked out on What Was Happening During Fermentation.

00:01:08: Before This There Were All sorts Of Fantastical Ideas About This Mystical Transformation Of Grape Juice Into Wine.

00:01:15: you know, not that long ago figured out it was yeasts.

00:01:21: So I think this will be an interesting discussion and one of the aspects we would quite like to focus on is letting stuff grow atop your wine during alivage floor because i think its a really interesting topic.

00:01:37: but enough from me over to Doug Yeasts & Wine

00:01:46: When selling wine, which I do sometimes very occasionally We talk about The way the wine is made.

00:01:54: for me.

00:01:55: I truly believe that the wine Is really made from grapes that are grown in vineyards and how you farm those vineyards as important.

00:02:03: but also It's a word that we're going to use i suppose living soils are very important And all this sort of microbiome That you know the life under the vine or you know that interacts with the wine is really important in the final outcome of how the wine tastes.

00:02:21: but yeah we talk about a lot about the nature of fermentation and because the company I work for specializes in their intervention wines, without being too particular about, you know what we're talking about sometimes.

00:02:44: We just use it as a very vague generalisation.

00:02:47: It's distinguished from wines that have been inoculated with either neutral yeast or flavoured use.

00:02:56: and obviously when you inoculate You control the fermentation somewhat And you are doing it so you have a particular outcome hurry the fermentation along or maybe it's you know to make it go in a certain direction.

00:03:15: Or add a particular flavour?

00:03:16: Or

00:03:16: to have a particular flavor, whereas a wild ferment...a truly wild ferment takes place in its own time and way.

00:03:24: The outcomes are not clear.

00:03:26: It can be dangerous of course You know, ferments could be stuck, sugars in wine may too much for the population used to digest but I like think if there is every year is a bit different because these populations must be different and their interaction during the fermentation, which are sort of finishing off the fermentation I always feel they're going to be different.

00:03:53: i don't know whether it's gonna be true and i'm sure we'll find this out.

00:03:56: They ARE different though aren't they?

00:04:00: with the yeast like there are certain ones that do part of the job and then they pass the baton on to somebody else.

00:04:06: That's a brilliant way of putting it, I've not heard of that before.

00:04:08: yeah because technically what happens in a log ferment where people have studied it is if you look at the populations.

00:04:16: now they can look at these populations using this next generation sequencing so you can actually see what's there.

00:04:21: In the past what they did was they had to culture their yeast.

00:04:23: So its looking for your keys under street lights you know, and people ask me well what did you lose them though?

00:04:29: I said no that's where the light is.

00:04:30: And so culturing you know ferments.

00:04:33: it's like stuff will culture grows but now you can use DNA sequencing as exactly was there What happens at the beginning of fermenting?

00:04:39: we've got lots different species of yeast.

00:04:41: We call them non-saccharomyces yeasts You know nonsacs.

00:04:47: They're kind of their abundant yeasts.

00:04:49: come in with grapes But also get tiny amounts of saccharomyce cerevisiae coming from vineyard.

00:04:56: so vineyard specific cerevisiae.

00:04:59: and Emily's analogy is perfect.

00:05:01: because what happens, the wild non-sax?

00:05:05: they're kind of bustling around it like this busy ecosystem.

00:05:08: And gradually I guess if you are doing a marathon or something everyone starts after awhile.

00:05:15: some people are flagging others have quit other people who were faster and stronger overtake them all As the alcohol goes up, a lot of those guys are kind-of like that's it.

00:05:29: We're done and then the serovisiae starts small than it grows up And then usually finishes the fermentation.

00:05:35: So thats'a general idea.

00:05:36: with the fermentation Of course we can't forget about bacteria as well.

00:05:39: Maybe will come on to bacteria later.

00:05:42: But you've got this incredible microbial mix.

00:05:45: You have got this remarkable resource which is sugar.

00:05:50: So for the microbes this is like super interesting.

00:05:52: We've got all these sugar, all his food and This is why saccharomyces cerevisiae Kind of evolved to make use of this environment you know like fruit environment.

00:06:03: And so rather than Using normal respiration To make them most you can from that sugar.

00:06:09: it does fermentation Which is slightly less efficient but what doesn't produces heat an alcohol?

00:06:17: the field, so it keeps the fruit to itself which is I think super interesting.

00:06:24: It's like a sort of antisocial strategy but its kind of trying not get rid off all other microbes.

00:06:31: Its Darwinistic almost!

00:06:33: But also isn't it brilliant that you've got a vineyard growing with grapes and the grapes come in part of their ecosystem as they're microbial ecosystems.

00:06:46: The grape comes into that.

00:06:47: you can make wine without doing anything, apart from just facilitating it by moving the grapes into the right place putting in the right container keeping the oxygen away after fermentation is finished.

00:06:59: It's like nothing else was needed and I think that so wonderful!

00:07:02: So i think the risks of doing a wild ferment are kind of um yeah they're real but isn't amazing if you can do it without having to add other microbes?

00:07:13: And just letting the microbes come in do their stuff?

00:07:16: maybe that's a bit fanciful.

00:07:18: Well, isn't?

00:07:19: one of the things about wildfire that we like is... ...is that wine will turn out different in each year.

00:07:24: If you wanted to be the same every year obviously We would inoculate.

00:07:28: I just want a couple questions to throw it out there.

00:07:32: One if you spray chemicals In the vineyard?

00:07:36: Is the population of wild yeast going to be reduced?

00:07:40: Presumably the microbes are going to killed off or some of them Will and also in the winery itself.

00:07:47: what about yeast populations that actually live in the winery and are sort of present all the time?

00:07:53: I have a jokey story, well not very funny.

00:07:55: Actually um...I drunk The Wines Of Jean-François Ganeva In the Jura for many years now.

00:08:04: A few years ago, or maybe ten years ago they started to make negotiation wines.

00:08:10: You know buying in grapes from the southern road and from Beaujolais From Alsace even and Burgundy.

00:08:17: And if you taste any of these wines blind He would swear that there were Gallivar wines.

00:08:25: Like he's inoculating them almost I think he jokingly says That They're all vinified with gallivar yeasts.

00:08:32: So no matter where they come from once they get into the cellar something takes over and he's probably

00:08:39: made

00:08:39: thousands of wines in there, in the same place.

00:08:44: And obviously they must be.

00:08:46: I guess...they must be yeast in a barrel or

00:08:49: microbes because certain barrels have different microbes right?

00:08:53: We see that also on the negative side when there is bacteria.

00:08:56: going back to your point you can have problematic vessel due to the bacteria that are there.

00:09:01: How do you feel about wild ferments the use of cultured yeast, is it something you feel strongly about?

00:09:08: I mean not to a point.

00:09:09: be dogmatic because i definitely have drunk wines that have got cultured yeasts.

00:09:14: but my fate like let's say the wines are lean towards and I love to drink.I think they're fuller expression often when made with wild yeast ferments... maybe sounds spiritual for some people.

00:09:32: the potential to just give a little edge sometimes, to the wine that gives it like a thumbprint.

00:09:37: That I think is really intriguing for me.

00:09:39: It's not so interesting to try very technically made wines but yes are very consistent But also...I don't know..it's predictable.

00:09:48: Like what if every time we met you just told me the same thing over and over again?

00:09:52: I mean We don't want hang out with you regularly.

00:09:55: You

00:09:57: must tell me

00:09:58: it's

00:09:59: like i was thinking that's a bit close to the bone.

00:10:01: maybe I'm being boring might come up with same anecdotes you know as they get old and forgotten, the same jokes.

00:10:06: But thats

00:10:07: okay.

00:10:07: we all do that!

00:10:08: And You Do That...I Also Do Do That but

00:10:10: not

00:10:11: All The Time!

00:10:14: And also you could be telling this story again..but Maybe its A More Interesting Story.

00:10:18: It Is Not A Boring One.

00:10:21: Again Its Like With A Lot Of These Things for what means and I think you mentioned just before we started recording that there was a study done on um, it showed that they were still ambient yeast from the vineyard present even when people would are inoculating.

00:10:37: So this is very interesting

00:10:39: paper that came out couple weeks ago And...

00:10:43: What?

00:10:44: This group in Italy will do?

00:10:45: We're looking at Nebbiolo wines From three different teowars Piedmontes, so I think it's Veltelina three different you know distinctly geographically localised places and What they found was that first of all They what they did at.

00:11:04: this is why it's interesting.

00:11:04: Is there looking the idea of microbial terroir?

00:11:07: So we're looking at the different microbes.

00:11:08: their but they were doing in the context of an inoculated fermentation.

00:11:14: So which as well?

00:11:14: how a lot of wines are made another green grapes in you know whack-n-y yeast

00:11:19: and

00:11:20: it kind of, the results went counter to what I think people are taught.

00:11:24: So if you inoculate fermentation that's...you're not going get wild yeast doing anything.

00:11:30: they just gonna be overwhelmed.

00:11:32: You also talk..if go into a winery where inoculated yeasts have been used these are kinda hiding the winery and so strong They end up doing the fermentations.

00:11:40: or when we talked with some say well there is some inoculative ferments taking place already going on the wineries You know, ferments that you're doing and trying to do them wild.

00:11:51: All they have an influence which I

00:11:53: think... So what was interesting about this paper is with these three different sites They found local microbes persisted

00:12:02: despite

00:12:05: the inoculation And played a role In the final flavour and aroma of wine.

00:12:11: This idea of microbial terroir The stuff comes from vineyard.

00:12:16: That's specific is a really interesting one because I first came across this back in two thousand and eleven, it's called Matt Goddard who was then at Lincoln University.

00:12:25: And he moved to the UK... I don't think he's British originally or bizarrely to Lincoln University of the UK.

00:12:32: So double-Lincolned!

00:12:35: He looked in vineyards in New Zealand where you know..he would go there look what's in the vineyard and you see what's in the vineyard, it wants to do the fermentations.

00:12:49: And he was showing that.

00:12:50: so a lot of these strains were vineyards specific although there are one or two strains we're like... This is saccharomyces cerevisiae.

00:12:57: So its' like showing that cerevisii does actually come from the vine yard as well.

00:13:02: because the old story where say You don't find cerevisai in vinyards It just beacuse.

00:13:07: people have been inoculating That your get into the winery and thats whats done with fermentation.

00:13:12: but that has been disproven.

00:13:13: so cerevisi does exist on the vineyard.

00:13:16: what he found there were local vineyard, local strains.

00:13:19: Then he found one strain that was...he isolated and went to the database and find it came from Burgundy because it became a barrel.

00:13:26: so yeast in a barrel was involved in fermentation of New Zealand which is quite cool yeah!

00:13:32: So its really interesting.

00:13:33: And this new study has added an extra complexion into the whole yeast story.

00:13:38: It's obviously a little controversial Because you've got alot people who are trying sell cultured yeasts.

00:13:44: You've got a lot of people who hate culture geese and call them lab yeasts.

00:13:49: But don't you think they could use this to their advantage?

00:13:51: Because when you told me that before, the question that came up for me was Could somebody whose inoculating their wine then used it as an argument for teowar?

00:14:00: Oh yeah but we're inoculating because it cleans out the whey... ...but still get teowara expression because you can get this thing from the vineyard.

00:14:05: Do feel like it would give another card to just continue not to be laying.

00:14:09: Well we haven't discussed peer-to-coove which is an oculation with your vineyard yeast, isn't it?

00:14:16: You explain a bit more about...

00:14:17: Yes.

00:14:18: So the idea behind Piedokuvus before you make your main ferment- Your main harvest, go out and harvest some bunches of grapes then crush them And start a little fermentation going.

00:14:27: Maybe you'll start five of them in Demi-johns Think

00:14:30: about like a mother.

00:14:32: Yeah for sourdough mothers that's really good analogy.

00:14:34: You're getting analogies tonight so impressive.

00:14:36: The idea is... She doesn't say much but she

00:14:40: says stuff.

00:14:40: that means stuff.

00:14:42: You're fermenting well!

00:14:45: So what you might do, make five of them adenjons and then just before the grapes come in.. ..you may have a little sniff when saying this one smells good.

00:14:54: This one's supposed to be whiffy so we won't use this one.

00:14:56: And than when your must or red wines get your must on your skins You'll pitch it there.

00:15:02: and thats designed for getting the cerevisiae going earlier fermentation going a bit stronger earlier on, taking away some of that risk period at the beginning where bacteria might grow.

00:15:14: Especially if you're not adding any sulfites in the beginning of fermentation which is actually reasonably common to not add sulfates at crush whereas in old days techno winemakers would have added sulfates and crushed automatically.

00:15:26: And

00:15:27: people still do it?

00:15:28: Yes but its like alot of people now don't.

00:15:30: so thats eliminating some risks.

00:15:35: safety is good sometimes you know.

00:15:37: I guess it's all very well and good for us to talk about this.

00:15:41: but if my money was on the line, i'd just bought a load of grapes.

00:15:45: or i've been farming some grapes at great expense and when i was doing fermentation...and i had a couple going stuck fermentations in previous year then i would be nervous aswell!

00:15:55: It's a lot of money.

00:15:57: so that's the perspective.

00:15:58: But

00:15:59: going back to my question, do you think that study is positive?

00:16:03: Like what... What Do You Think if you were a conventional winemaker or let's say techno winemaker and your inoculating.

00:16:09: You find out information.

00:16:11: Well I don't think it's gonna persuade me not add the yeast because I've got belt embraces You know.

00:16:16: yeah for safety of the ferment plus i'm getting some terroir influence as well.

00:16:20: so you're talking

00:16:21: about whether its marketing thing and that I don't think it is.

00:16:24: because if you're inoculating still, doesn't matter whether there's vestigial traces of yeast.

00:16:31: You can really say its more of a terrawire wine... No no but what

00:16:34: they are saying is their finding some signature.

00:16:37: so they find the use given character to the wine actually used from the vineyard.

00:16:41: So not just happen to be present on small numbers They

00:16:45: have

00:16:45: an impact.

00:16:45: So i think thats kind of cool.

00:16:47: But then obviously for lot people philosophically And then the other people who buy the cultured yeast because they want a special flavour in their wine, don't care about the terroir.

00:16:57: They just won't us you know want yeast cause they've been promised by the yeast company that's going to give me bright raspberry and bubblegum or something called

00:17:06: floral

00:17:07: cherries and herbs and dark sheds in the backs of gardens or something, I don't know.

00:17:13: It's you know whatever.

00:17:14: Okay

00:17:19: little bit of a disturbing... What i really love is that what we associate when talking about wild ferment.

00:17:37: The winemaker is presumably wanting to capture something of the terroir and that process will allow it happen, but by doing so in a particular way he or she does.

00:17:53: It's new dimension for terroirs.

00:17:55: we probably didn't touch on when we first tackle that subject but perhaps yeah, we can certainly bring that.

00:18:02: Dougie

00:18:03: raised a question earlier on.

00:18:04: if you're putting agrochemicals into the vineyard then are affecting these populations and the answer is everyone who's growing viticevinifera using some sort of chemicals in organic or bio-dynamic, or systemics.

00:18:23: Actually a lot of convention people use some copper because it's kind of effective Or could be systemics and so they're all going to have an effect on yeasts Because their antifungal.

00:18:37: So copper is quite broad ranging.

00:18:39: so is sulfur.

00:18:41: They are gonna have quite a broad raging effect knocking back microbial populations.

00:18:48: And so it's not the clear-cut story we'd like, which is that if you stick to organics You're gonna have a better

00:18:55: microbial... But can they not measure the yeast populations?

00:19:00: Let's say between I don't know organic, bio-dynamic regenerative and sort of agrochemically straight.

00:19:05: Generally what do they tend to do?

00:19:07: biodynamics or organics versus What are called conventional Which usually pretty brutal.

00:19:12: It's usually just organic

00:19:15: versus... But where the organics wins out is because although they, the bits of the vine you're spraying and again knock back the fungal populations.

00:19:24: The fact that your soil health is going to produce lots of microbial stuff in the vineyard itself whereas if you are doing what the brutal conventional they always compare it with would be like herbicide.

00:19:34: So kind of knocked off so much life on your soils Your ecosystem is devoid a lot and also you won't have bees flying around so much, because there's no biodiversity then.

00:19:46: So the biodiversity of these insects?

00:19:48: they're going to be transporting microbes.

00:19:49: Yeah that made me just wonder like how do bees bring yeast around?

00:19:55: Oh they do!

00:19:55: Bees are what they definitely

00:19:56: do.

00:19:57: yeah insects

00:19:57: It's not just pollination.

00:19:59: but if you spray I don't know fertilizers as well chemical fertilizers presumably root systems don't develop.

00:20:07: Well,

00:20:08: what happens is that when you start supplying nutrients like that the vines are not going to be pumped because of.

00:20:15: plants generally pump out quite a lot of photosynthetics feed microbial communities who then helping to recruit these nutrients so That your encouraging them microbes to work in the soil area and the rhizosphere Because they're actually mobilizing for neutral.

00:20:28: So you can get more

00:20:29: of it?

00:20:30: It's like you do.

00:20:31: we actually paying quite a lots in terms with your photosynthetic.

00:20:35: But if you were getting all this micronutrients for free, then you just don't target.

00:20:41: I mean i'm making it sound like they're making a choice but the ten plants tend not to use so much their resources to feed the microbial communities.

00:20:51: So its actually really bad thing do add all these fertilisers because it stops that microbial ecosystem below the surface from developing.

00:21:03: what should

00:21:05: be the difference between organic, biodynamic?

00:21:08: reject.

00:21:09: It would be very interesting just to see the differences between somebody farming regeneratively and somebody organically like in terms of what's happening?

00:21:17: You know we quite typically do an experiment.

00:21:20: you need a lot of evidence to come to any conclusion about it.

00:21:24: as far I say no experiments between organics and biodynamics.

00:21:28: don't put up a lot

00:21:33: you know, on biotonomics and organics over a number of years.

00:21:36: I think they did it for ten years but i should check that out um and look at their come up.

00:21:40: some very good results.

00:21:41: so thats worth checking out in the sort obviously climate.

00:21:45: there are climates with growing season rainfall.

00:21:49: its cooler than damper But its really good study.

00:21:53: The thing is what no one has done.

00:21:56: They always compare this to like the worst conventional.

00:22:02: they don't like someone who's regenerative but isn't organic, that would be very interesting because I think you'd get with a living ecosystem.

00:22:10: You get most of the benefits.

00:22:11: i think The ultimate goal is to have biologically effective diversity within your vineyard.

00:22:18: so the vines are still functioning well.

00:22:20: So it was a very dry climate and you can't have too much stuff growing during the growing season.

00:22:24: But if your vines were functioning well then you've got this effected biodiversity.

00:22:31: However you get that, doesn't matter so much.

00:22:33: What matters is it's got to be looking after your soils and living soils.

00:22:37: Shall we try

00:22:40: a wine?

00:22:40: Yeah So I think we should branch onto this topic of the other topic of yeast.

00:22:43: We don't talk about much as floor And i'm a real floor addict have to say Well

00:22:48: let's have a floor mine then!

00:22:49: You've got one for us, haven't

00:22:51: ya?

00:22:52: Yes

00:22:52: It's here This wine from Domain in the Roussillon that Doug knows very well Roque des Anches.

00:23:07: and they make this wine.

00:23:10: so it's a white wine.

00:23:14: It is called alchimia, and its van de voile.

00:23:18: So it's floor wine.

00:23:19: what the do is have in two hundred twenty eight liter barrels.

00:23:22: They just take them up to develop some floor.

00:23:24: And I think it said cross vintage blend.

00:23:27: yes,

00:23:27: yeah usually two integers

00:23:31: Yeah.

00:23:31: So this was made by the Galles, but there's a new owner now.

00:23:36: Yes Tupo Pontier is the owner and he worked with them, the Marjorie Galle and Stefan before.

00:23:47: This isn't where I think... The yeast is used as a seasoning rather than sort of an imposition or it doesn't define the wine a subtle accent.

00:24:01: What we're dealing here is quite delicate winemaking and wine of real purity and delicacy, I mean the inspiration behind The Roc de Sange Wines was always burgundy you know something which is pretty and transparent although were in one of the hottest places on France.

00:24:21: You know the wines have this sort of soothing minerality assortiness just brought up a notch by the existence of flaw in the wine.

00:24:34: But I think it's beautifully done, its good...I like because i'm so used to flaw in sherrys or Montiados and it's quite flaw plus this sort punchy alcohol is you know there's quite a lot to take!

00:24:51: You need food with that.

00:24:52: here It's twelve

00:24:56: and a half percent alcohol.

00:24:56: Yeah, it has got really good acid line And its got that tangy salinity Which I think is from the floor isn't

00:25:04: there?

00:25:05: Yes But the acidity then pH... Well gives

00:25:09: much more freshness to wine because of that fluorating

00:25:12: as well.

00:25:13: no So somehow especially in warmer climate you can bring even more balance to the line.

00:25:18: i think.

00:25:19: Just give another dimension to the palette doesn' t you know, sometimes people use skin contacting it bitterness.

00:25:26: this is the opposite.

00:25:27: This is using sort of like the yeast to give that almost yeah that round rounding it off in

00:25:34: a way.

00:25:34: I think its the umami thing as well.

00:25:36: It's like...it's supple but it has got that.

00:25:38: you know that marmite saltiness?

00:25:42: Because this wine isn't at all oxidative Its very chiseled and linear.

00:25:46: But its got the flaw character And definitely it says seasoning..its not dominant!

00:25:51: And i really liked that because sometimes i think flaw can be an artifact.

00:25:54: Yeah, it's a bit like that flinty reduction.

00:25:57: It works well in some contexts but of its...in itself!

00:26:02: ...it can be how.

00:26:03: there are a lot of the new sort-of sherry country table wines being made with floor, so unfortified.

00:26:12: A lot of them are really good because they've got good grapes and terroirs.

00:26:16: They're well made And then you have got some floor as an additional element to them.

00:26:20: But some of You know, like this is not so well-found.

00:26:26: It's big eels

00:26:28: and then

00:26:31: just a whack

00:26:32: of floor

00:26:34: And that's just dominant.

00:26:35: it's nice for a minute but afterwards.

00:26:38: This isn't really my thing.

00:26:40: But I think that's the difference, isn't it between let say a wine then becomes all about the winemaking rather than necessarily like the expression of the wine itself.

00:26:49: This is something...I don't know!

00:26:51: The floor characteristic almost dances through the

00:26:55: palette for this wine.

00:26:56: I think

00:26:56: there was already good way to describe it and i think this is like floors or some primary accent?

00:27:01: I don't mean primary as in heavy.

00:27:04: It's like primary with uh food quality in the Jura, they're more sort of classic than during Vandeval style.

00:27:12: The floor is already developing secondary and even going to tertiary And those are wines with very concentrated big shoulders.

00:27:21: They have this like the spiciness.

00:27:25: but also you know that if you open a bottle the wine will last, they're protected against oxygen almost.

00:27:31: You don't have to finish a bottle because it's just like tense!

00:27:35: They'll last weeks and months.

00:27:37: yeah whereas here I think this is like this is fair.

00:27:39: now in a delightful way.

00:27:41: Yes

00:27:41: Yeah And It

00:27:41: has delicacy too.

00:27:43: but i also really good sherrys very good phenomansin and you have

00:27:48: a delicacy for them as well.

00:27:48: The best ones are really good And I really liked that whole enrama thing where you've got density of flavour thats not being stripped out.

00:27:55: that then meshes well with the floor, and floor is just such an amazing thing.

00:28:00: And I guess a wisdom of those sellers in Hereth and San Luca as they blend different years partly because when you're putting new wine into an older one taking some out your providing more nutrients than to feed the floor layer, so it's partly you know they've got special canoes that go in don't just...you can top up without disrupting the floor.

00:28:25: there is your protecting that floor layer and these cellars.

00:28:28: I think i've had them called The Second Terroir.

00:28:30: In a sense that depending on where your cellar is how warm it is How much moisture there is.

00:28:36: Do we talk

00:28:37: about this as another episode?

00:28:38: Do you know who we're

00:28:39: talking about then?

00:28:40: Which

00:28:40: wall you are on?

00:28:41: It kind of like another terroir isn't it?

00:28:43: And its legitimate!

00:28:46: Also I love the flavour of floor wine.

00:28:49: I don't know whether, you know if i was making wine.

00:28:53: I'd like to get some floor.

00:28:54: Do I just have to leave them?

00:28:55: You know a bit of headspace in the barrel or the prey Or is there...I

00:28:59: think it IS.

00:28:59: you have to pray because It's not just it's not guaranteed.

00:29:01: What depends where you are doesn't it?

00:29:03: In the world certain places you're not maybe gonna Get a floor.

00:29:07: what do we try out with?

00:29:09: We used to work

00:29:10: for The producer- I won't name the producer but Eric went to taste and he has these massive fooder big barrels.

00:29:19: We got the wine in just because we wanted to get the wine.

00:29:22: And I tasted it and said is this under floor?

00:29:25: He said no dirty Dirty yeasts, dirty floor you know like dirty savers.

00:29:31: Dirty floor honestly and I know what he means.

00:29:35: It's slightly cheesy stinky which is not you want...I love this because It's like diamond, it is pure and precise.

00:29:49: Right which wine am

00:29:50: I?

00:29:50: You've got a blind one coming down.

00:29:52: Oh its the Blind one coming now!

00:29:54: Maybe while Doug's

00:29:58: opening that there are two points on my agenda here.

00:30:03: One question you asked Doug before we started recording around wine being alive in the role of yeast.

00:30:10: That was quite relevant.

00:30:11: So it's, so obviously microbe your product and also the safety first.

00:30:16: techno wine maker might say we want the microbes to do their job then.

00:30:19: We want the wine to be clean and free of microbes.

00:30:23: And so the question is you know Is that taking something away from a wine?

00:30:29: Do we want our wines who still have To be living in the sense of having microbes in it after fermentation After my lack of fermentation even when it's in the bottle?

00:30:40: I mean in the case of the sherry wines that you've just talked about they are still living with that floor component in the cellar right as well.

00:30:46: like there is an evolution, there's an evolvement.

00:30:49: There's something actually happening

00:30:53: but they're doing...they're promoting it aren't they?

00:30:54: With humidity whereas um

00:30:57: i suspect

00:30:58: we're not promoting.

00:30:59: do you give us a little Pomona again?

00:31:02: Is this a cider

00:31:02: though?

00:31:03: Yes.

00:31:06: We are blind tasting legends, we can tell the difference between cider and wine

00:31:10: One day... one day.

00:31:13: Yeah!

00:31:13: This is a floor sider.

00:31:16: Then is it from the US?

00:31:20: No It's from Herefordshire.

00:31:21: Okay..is

00:31:22: it little Pomona?

00:31:23: It was like...

00:31:26: I could say that this is delicious.

00:31:28: This is really nice

00:31:29: But I wanted to, because what we were discussing earlier how it gives certain sort of like breadth and depth.

00:31:35: And all sorts of things are not well if you can do in wine or presumably doing another drinks and cider is about as close to wine.

00:31:42: when we're thinking there's a lot comparisons one could make but...

00:31:46: Well yeah that's the thing about cider.

00:31:47: Is that when he tastes great side of that?

00:31:50: You think i would love to drink more cider!

00:31:52: The problem with cider is kind of ruined by.

00:31:56: Just so for people who are listening, we're trying the twenty-two Many Rivers Egremont Russet floor age yellow cider from

00:32:05: many rivers south little nod to the wonderful oxidative wine styles of the Jura in eastern France.

00:32:11: Egremond Russet wild fermented in oak and floor aged for three years is far from typical cider making even for us.

00:32:18: but it's resultant decided that its fascinating drink as was risky.

00:32:23: It's rather risque to drink, isn't it?

00:32:26: I think its got a almost like washy.

00:32:28: What do you mean frisky?

00:32:30: Frisky

00:32:30: yeah.

00:32:32: But i think this is almost like washed rind cheese kind of on the nose.

00:32:37: You don't necessarily always get but in good way.

00:32:40: Yeah This should

00:32:40: go so well with like comte.

00:32:44: Even the softer cheese would be good.

00:32:47: Its got a little tannin bite and a little phenolic thing going On And such layers of flavour A bit salty aswell.

00:32:53: I think that little bit of floor somehow drives the palette more.

00:32:57: I don't know, it gives a little

00:32:58: bit more... Yes because the cider is like... I mean you know apples on have tannins or whatever and they don't have the acidity we have in wine.

00:33:08: so actually give.

00:33:09: yeah

00:33:10: It surrounds everything off which is what skin contact can do as well.

00:33:17: That's fantastic!

00:33:19: And how much expense would this be to reach our price?

00:33:23: X-Vat, it's going to be about twelve or thirteen I guess.

00:33:27: So you could list this in a restaurant?

00:33:29: Yeah!

00:33:29: Not at crazy price

00:33:30: yeah and You can pour over the days.

00:33:32: It's all kind of sort of...

00:33:34: It looks really lovely And the label is really nice.

00:33:37: It means packaged like wine which makes sense.

00:33:41: so when you taste great cider like that as you think In the country like UK Wine is great.

00:33:46: but also don't forget cider.

00:33:47: That why Tim Phillips' work where he definitely Bringing the apple and the grape together in a lot of products.

00:33:55: Yes, they're just such fun And that's so good

00:33:57: their neighbors Just on the other side at the wall.

00:34:00: Yeah No I mean cider is.

00:34:02: we never really talk about it but cider Is.

00:34:04: It was The wine of England you know?

00:34:07: It's only recently.

00:34:08: We've had apples

00:34:09: and

00:34:11: some of them

00:34:12: are super cheap compared to grapes.

00:34:14: So suddenly You can do something That give people Something that's complex and layered in a logical, in the sense that it's venous.

00:34:25: This

00:34:25: is what you know.

00:34:26: people who are on anti-alcohol campaigns.

00:34:28: they should just get onto their cider.

00:34:29: You don't have to have a full glass of wine or a glass of cider.

00:34:32: instead It's half the alcohol

00:34:35: And we had another one.

00:34:37: So if I knock back our cider actually i'll have a spittoon here.

00:34:40: The other thing I wanted to mention was maybe we should also talk about the role of yeast further along because when talking about fermentation We've talked about floor, but we haven't talked about leaves aging for example.

00:34:57: Is that something it's interesting?

00:34:58: I think the

00:34:59: leaves are very interesting because a dead yeast is so important in you know in the elivage of wine and they're brilliant tool.

00:35:11: There's a little sound effect there with the plastic water bottle being compressed.

00:35:15: I'm generally spilling some of the water over my glass!

00:35:20: You're obviously not a water sommelier,

00:35:21: no... Not yet?

00:35:24: No but using leaves in an interesting way is fantastic and i remember visiting a winery in Cando where all their good leaves kept it put into tank And they had some Riesling on top of it so that the Rieseling was like aging on insane levels of leaves.

00:35:40: That's kind of cool, but also leaves.

00:35:41: They fix a lot problems.

00:35:42: It's a natural way of fixing.

00:35:43: you've got to whine this bit Like I read wine and barrel spit like me just bunk some leeson.

00:35:50: Just let magic

00:35:51: do know though?

00:35:52: I've been up in going off Some Leasy white wines lately and i mean i like White Wines a bit like you dug what winds have texture enjoy a bit more opulence In my whites in general.

00:36:03: But you know when you have a wine that's been kept on the leaves, let usually be more naturally made but like lets say six to nine months and then try it.

00:36:12: First year good.

00:36:13: second-year.

00:36:13: Good, but maybe the wines up four or five years old and then it starts to take on this cheesy character.

00:36:18: But when it becomes like dominant at the end if you know what I mean?

00:36:21: Like and i've noticed It Maybe it's just me getting a bit sensitive To the flavor.

00:36:25: but actually that i'm starting to find as an unpleasant Characteristic in wine.

00:36:29: have you experienced that where you're like oh That's a little bit too cheesy to the point Where the wine tastes more developed This

00:36:36: is like seasoning.

00:36:37: You Know like yeah one.

00:36:39: you know all winds are about different sorts of balance.

00:36:42: In the eighties and nineties everyone was mad about lees, particularly in Burgundy but California even worse.

00:36:49: so batonage

00:36:52: is different to keeping things on leaves.

00:36:55: I'm saying that the effect of Batonage was not particularly beneficial for a couple decades of winemaking.

00:37:03: now people keep the wine on the lease quietly.

00:37:06: You have to decide do you want it to be the gross leaves

00:37:09: or

00:37:10: the fine leaves?

00:37:11: Do you stir them at all, just prevent the wine from being too reductive and possibly being scarred by that.

00:37:21: And then yeah as Jeremy said It does help protect The wine.

00:37:27: I guess if use more of these aging Presumably don't need so many sulfites.

00:37:33: Discuss Jamie.

00:37:36: Yeah, no I think that...I'm speaking to Ernie Lawson in the Moselle about.

00:37:42: you know his big move has been to go from stainless steel for best wines towards large format oak but then keep things on the lease like two years maybe three years and there's one wine.

00:37:53: he's kept them at least six or seven years.

00:37:56: Is it enjoyable?

00:37:57: Oh they're amazing because they develop a beautiful way And it's not got that precision and sharpness of stainless steel.

00:38:09: A large format oak, not so much auction coming through but then the leaves there as well I think is you know kind of full leafs as well Not just a... It's very interesting i think.

00:38:18: Yeah!

00:38:18: I think leaves in micro-oxygenation Huh?

00:38:20: What are we drinking now?

00:38:21: Yeah!

00:38:22: Drinking!

00:38:23: Where

00:38:23: were we drinking?

00:38:24: Oh two or three.

00:38:26: I will let Doug introduce this wine because he brought it which is kind of cool.

00:38:30: i'm holding it towards our invisible listener um or an inaudible listener.

00:38:35: so, this is a wine from Jean-François Ganeva and its Savignyre actually Savignya there cause they're actually three types of Savignia And It's called Antide Which I think was the name of his son.

00:38:46: Eighty four months' elevage.

00:38:48: So Savigna after eighty four months no cell fights.

00:38:53: Is

00:38:53: it non-vintage then?

00:38:55: What's the...?

00:38:55: Ehm, eighteen.

00:38:58: Eighty four months, so this is... Eighty Four Months' Elevage for a Wine with No Self-Its Added.

00:39:04: Yes, chopped up in demi-mouille!

00:39:10: That's a lot of topping you're gonna have to do.

00:39:12: I mean that is insane because its quite beautiful wine isn't there?

00:39:20: This is really beautiful.

00:39:21: Well, it's a nice segue just from the story you were telling about the wine in the Mosul as well that we're trying wine and It's cool That you bought this also because obviously You said that this is all so nice thing to show talk about Because people think about always thinking about Savagnana floor.

00:39:37: And its funny because Obviously you guys make like with the land on wines right?

00:39:43: I import them in Germany But this is not typical Jura.

00:39:48: And I'm like, what?

00:39:50: Oh but it's really just different.

00:39:52: and no its just topped up It's just non oxidative.

00:39:55: Some people have the image of only oxidative wines... ...and still shocks me today after how much Jura has blown-up that people don't even realise there

00:40:03: are huge proportions.

00:40:04: Yeah!

00:40:04: Non oxidative

00:40:05: vines.

00:40:06: The number times i try a vanzone compared with you know... A hundred to one or something.

00:40:12: Yeah yeah,

00:40:14: very

00:40:14: rare People don't, I mean people get jurors just the opposite side of the valley to Burgundy.

00:40:19: If this were a Polini or a Chabri-Gronk crew you wouldn't have any problems.

00:40:23: Why love about it?

00:40:24: The way the oak is integrated into this...I mean i know some used barrels but still and then the acidity is so

00:40:31: piercing isn't it?

00:40:32: Sparkling!

00:40:34: What's amazing is that You can Have a wine with no cell fights And all the mind sciences will tell you It's gonna die.

00:40:43: This is SO alive It's so fresh, it's pristine.

00:40:48: Reminds me of a champagne that has been on its leaves in the bottle for ten years you know?

00:40:52: Yes like...it is not budged You

00:40:54: know?

00:40:55: So do they stabilize?

00:40:57: Stabilize the wine, stabilise the flavours.

00:41:00: I think one thing here if we have very low pH That will stop any bad things happening.

00:41:04: Well

00:41:05: i guess the leaves are about protecting the wine from oxidation.

00:41:07: Yeah,

00:41:08: but they're up to a point.

00:41:09: But still it's like wow this is I think in early in its life.

00:41:13: A lot of the phenolics would have been oxidized So that hasn't gotten into... To have oxidation you need to have phenolic and transition metal ions.

00:41:21: so The more phenoxy can get rid off better.

00:41:24: or you can't get rid of the transition metal

00:41:25: ion.

00:41:26: So oxidizing the juice or exposing the

00:41:30: juice for low oxygen pre-diametration.

00:41:31: If i wanted a wine to last long time I Would go to barrel with brown juice.

00:41:38: But what a beautiful way to end this episode.

00:41:41: I mean, it's been a nice long wide-ranging discussion on...

00:41:45: What wine?

00:41:46: We deserve a treat!

00:41:47: This is a real treat Doug.

00:41:49: thank you.

00:41:50: I feel like we always get spoiled by you guys.

00:41:53: In terms of bringing wines along, Doug has like premiership

00:41:58: and... Premiership Santa Claus.

00:42:00: Yeah

00:42:03: There's gotta be like vintna claws.

00:42:04: there's got to be a pun in there.

00:42:06: that's wine related?

00:42:07: no I have to find it.

00:42:08: Sure,

00:42:09: of course!

00:42:14: So thank you for listening to this episode Of Just Another Wine Podcast and goodbye from me Jamie

00:42:22: And bye from me Emily.

00:42:23: From me Doug

00:42:24: You can check us out on Instagram at just another wine podcast.

00:42:29: Till next time

00:42:35: Cheers.