How do you like them appellations?

00:00:00: [MUSIC]

00:00:10: This is just another wine podcast. I'm Emily Harmon.

00:00:21: I'm Jamie Good.

00:00:22: And I'm Doug Reg.

00:00:22: Today we're talking about the Appalachian system and Appalachians as a whole.

00:00:29: Appalachians serve as possibly a great benefit for consumers to understand or get used to

00:00:37: particular styles, regions, great varieties to potentially know what they can expect from a

00:00:43: bottle of wine. However, that comes with several limitations that could inhibit creativity,

00:00:51: variety of expression, maybe even tell our expression or certain ways of wine making.

00:00:57: So the big question today is, Appalachian, no Appalachian, yes, no, there's lots of questions

00:01:06: around. Do we think the Appalachian system is now redundant?

00:01:11: It's a really good question. I like the, you know, I remember when I was first discovering wine,

00:01:17: so I kind of did what most people did is like you learn about the famous places.

00:01:24: And in the old world, in France in particular, because in the UK wine education is very

00:01:28: Franco-centric, it's very heavily Appalachian-led, you know, when you bought a bottle of wine,

00:01:34: the main buying cue would be like Corsonser or Chablis or Cote de Rhone or many other Appalachians.

00:01:41: And so that would be the main thing. So if you're a geek, you might know the producers,

00:01:44: and obviously producers are very good cue for buying. But generally speaking, it was this shared

00:01:50: collective brand of the Appalachian that was the thing you were supposed to choose the wine for.

00:01:56: And the Appalachian rules were supposed to ensure that anybody buying a bottle of that wine would

00:02:01: have a wine of a certain quality. So for instance, they specify the grape variety, obviously,

00:02:07: they specify the, you know, the way the vines were trained even, the yields that you could take,

00:02:13: all manner of things would be specified in the, in the, the regulations of the Appalachian.

00:02:20: With the idea being that, that if you buy a bottle of wine with a certain name on the label,

00:02:26: you will get a typical example and a certain guarantee of quality through that, you know,

00:02:34: and then some, some Appalachians would have taste tests as well. So they'd filter out some wines

00:02:39: they didn't, didn't taste typical for the Appalachian. And on paper, this sounds great,

00:02:42: but in practice, I think it's more complicated.

00:02:46: I agree. I mean, I think Appalachians were formed with a, the good idea, it was, it was to ensure

00:02:55: minimum standards, but actually, in a way, it sort of throttled innovation. And in a way,

00:03:01: it was totally arbitrary, who chooses what grape to grow on what soil. And in fact,

00:03:10: a lot of applications were, Appalachians were illiterate in the sense that they had no sense of

00:03:18: the historical culture of particular wine regions, like particularly, let's talk about Jorah, for

00:03:23: example, in that a lot of, a lot of wines had to be declassified to Vande France or Vendor

00:03:32: Tabla at the time, simply because they were made with traditional grape varieties and not with the

00:03:38: modern, recognised grape varieties. So if Appalachian isn't defending history and culture,

00:03:44: what the hell is it doing? The other, the worrying thing about Appalachian as well,

00:03:49: as it leads to increasing homogenisation, because obviously, if you're insisting on

00:03:55: certain standards and certain styles of wine to be typical of a region, that means wines which are

00:04:01: more interesting, perhaps more innovative, or more natural for want of a better word,

00:04:09: are considered to be atypical and therefore are not entitled to Appalachian. And there have been a

00:04:15: lot of instances of growers falling out of Appalachian, and even whole Appalachians falling

00:04:22: apart, particularly in the lower, I'm afraid to say, where there's a battle between a group of growers

00:04:30: who want their efforts to be recognised. One classic example is Anjou, in which it is said

00:04:38: you could get Appalachian with a bottle of wine that costs less than a bottle of mineral water,

00:04:44: but if you work biodynamically with horses and make a natural wine, then you get declassified

00:04:52: because your wines are considered to be weird or funky or not typical. And this is not just

00:05:01: Loire, this is Piedmont, we work with a grosstofano Bellotti, who, you know, RIP by the way,

00:05:08: who's wines were again thrown out of Appalachian because he planted, he had the temerity to plant

00:05:17: peach trees in the vineyard, which again is a traditional sort of polycultural thing to do.

00:05:24: It's been done for like hundreds of years, you know, to plant to plants of soft root trees and

00:05:31: to have other plants within the vineyard. But again, it was, you know, not allowed by some

00:05:37: arbitrary local rules. As the man himself said, like, you know, when I make, when I make garvey or I

00:05:43: make a cortesi, it must reflect the particularity of the vineyard. So that vineyard has maritime

00:05:50: influences on that sort of soil, whatever. And my wines don't taste like a typical garvey or

00:05:58: typical cortesi, because they've all been homogenized by the fact that the board will only allow

00:06:06: a style of wine that is recognized by consumers or consumer acceptance panels.

00:06:13: Whereas when he asked, what is a typical garvey, they gave him a description of a wine that was

00:06:19: so neutral that it was exactly the same description of wine as a radicchio way down south. So what

00:06:28: does it mean? Appalachian is meant to be calling things and describing things the way they are,

00:06:34: but is actually laid down like a whole bunch of, in some cases, largely arbitrary rules,

00:06:41: which don't actually defend the region. They impose upon it and the region's growth, I should say.

00:06:48: I mean, it often can also be dictated for political reasons, right? Because some of these

00:06:53: appalachians are funded by, let's say, some of the larger producers who are making wines that maybe

00:06:59: fit a more generic... Cooperatives as well, yes. Profiles. So then it becomes very, very difficult

00:07:07: because there's a dominant force that's guiding what that policy looks like for the appalachian,

00:07:16: and that doesn't necessarily help small artisan producers. The one that comes up for me as an

00:07:22: example, actually, I'm thinking of is the carver appalachian, how that just has disintegrated for

00:07:29: quality carver. And then the complexity of creating new appalachians, which has become very confusing,

00:07:36: because then it was like, is it Panetta's classic, and then there's Corpina, and there's all of this

00:07:41: stuff that for a consumer, nobody knows the head from the tail, like in this situation.

00:07:45: For me as a buyer, it's like, what's happening over there now? It's confusing how a winery should

00:07:52: define themselves, where do they fit in, how can it change, how do you see the innovation for the

00:07:58: appalachian system? Well, let's look at the positives of an appalachian system. And I think

00:08:03: the positives, I think, are not without merit. I mean, the fact that once you've got a region

00:08:12: that has identified a sort of talent that this region has, say for instance, with a one or a

00:08:19: set of grape varieties, then to kind of restrict the appalachian to working with those grape varieties

00:08:28: kind of preserves a local identity in that sense. If you look at, for instance, the New World Wine

00:08:34: Regions, if we're still able to use that term New World, let's use the term that's the outside of

00:08:40: Europe to outside of Europe wine regions. So I mean, I grew up with Australian wine. That's how

00:08:46: I got into wine. And I'm going to Australia and you've got wineries there where for the local

00:08:51: market, they'll plant everything. They'll plant eight different varieties and make wines from them,

00:08:57: because the local market wants a Cabernet, they want a Chiraz, they want a Sauvignon Blanc,

00:09:02: they want Chardonnay, they want Riesling. So you get all these different varieties being made in

00:09:07: the same place, even though that place may have a certain talent for a certain variety or a few

00:09:12: varieties. It's like commercial expediency means that they make everything. And I understand that,

00:09:19: but it's like so that's all well and good. But then the appalachian system is a way of like saying,

00:09:26: well, we'll stop focusing on things that we're not really good at, we'll just focus on things

00:09:31: we're really good at that our sites really work well with. And so in some ways, the appalachian

00:09:37: system has been very positive in preserving regional diversity and preserving styles of wines.

00:09:42: And that's been good. But the problem with the collective brand is it requires

00:09:46: everybody to be selfless and to try and work in favour of that collective brand.

00:09:54: The problem is, you know, I'm looking on my shelves, I see some Chablis,

00:09:57: I see some Saint-Sère, you know, it's like those are famous names, right?

00:10:02: And how many generic wines have you had from those places?

00:10:04: Exactly. So the people who make money out of Chablis, so the good producers are building equity

00:10:10: into that collective brand. They're making wines that are really truly worthy of the name Chablis,

00:10:17: but then the people who make the money out of that collective brand are the people who can just

00:10:21: pour out loads of wine that matches the appalachian Cahier de Chage,

00:10:28: but really has a very little character. So the supermarkets are full of wines with the

00:10:32: famous names on them that just shappen up to, you know, all these names.

00:10:35: That are very disappointing examples, because they're the cheapest examples of the appalachian,

00:10:44: and that dilutes the appalachian. And it's like so, so some people are playing well,

00:10:49: they're doing well, they're building equity into the brand. Other people are just spending that

00:10:53: brand equity, because on an individual level it costs them nothing. And so this is a big problem

00:10:58: with appalachians is that you can't guarantee quality by a Cahier de Chage, you know, a set of rules.

00:11:05: You know, it's almost like you have to recognize quality at the end, and there's different ways

00:11:10: to get into quality, but by setting maximum meals and all these sorts of regulations, you know,

00:11:16: that doesn't guarantee quality. What they can do is you can break it down a bit,

00:11:21: because appalachians are like ridiculously large, you know, like, I mean, terrain for goodness sake.

00:11:27: I mean, it's huge. I mean, there's probably thousands of growers within that whole appalachian.

00:11:32: There's no one identical style, but how are you to know? But then we see things like

00:11:38: Terrain Chen on Sir, and things like that, you know, it's like, yeah, so that's something

00:11:43: in France, particularly, there was Minerva, AOC, 300 and something growers. Now there's

00:11:48: La Levinea, and, you know, Corbière, it's butanac, and more and more subdivisions, each crew

00:11:56: having higher and higher standards, and a sense that the growers are increasingly involved in

00:12:02: defining the terroir, defining the standards, rather than some sort of arbitrary board and saying,

00:12:08: this is like, this is all good Corbière. In fact, Corbière is fine, but would you not want to have

00:12:16: a crew status within it? Would you want not want your, your particular estate and your particularly

00:12:22: low yields and your adherence to local grape varieties recognized in appalachian, rather than

00:12:27: just like your one over 350, 400 growers? I think there's another thing which is goes beyond appalachian.

00:12:36: A few years ago, Renaissance disappellation was formed. Yeah, the nickelijouli, the biodynamic

00:12:41: to protect the notion of appellation, and that's quite a worthy status. They imposed

00:12:46: far stricter standards, and they did like a one star, two star, three star system,

00:12:51: and they allied appellation to farming, organic, biodynamic, etc. You know, the amount, you know,

00:12:58: like not filtering or, you know, not using certain sort of adjunctives in wine, and growers who wanted

00:13:06: to go from one to two to three stars, I mean, they were designated whatever they would do,

00:13:10: was being described, but they're all part of a group that was basically pushing each other

00:13:16: harder and higher to make better wines. And therefore, appellation is being associated with

00:13:22: quality, getting right-minded people, not just in one region, but across the whole of the world,

00:13:28: to sort of create this notion of like, these are special places. The other, the other sort of

00:13:35: organizations obviously, organic and biodynamic, there are many, many, many bodies that certify,

00:13:43: again, usually imposing minimum standards to get the qualification. It's not a perfect system by

00:13:51: any means, but it's a start. And all these things together with appellation can make a difference,

00:13:58: but at the moment, I think appellation in itself, although a worthy idea originally, as I said,

00:14:03: is probably not fit for purpose at the moment. I think what's coming up for me when you shared

00:14:08: that, Doug, I started to think about, you know, like the appellation system is just like any other

00:14:14: organization or association, that it's not void of the same complexities of gain and agenda,

00:14:23: that like everybody who's involved uses that system for their own advantage, right? Like,

00:14:28: it's not just because it's wine, because we love it and we're passionate about it and we see it as,

00:14:33: you know, something that is maybe a spiritual calling, maybe a poetic thing, maybe it's

00:14:38: a form of art. But I think there's a lot of people in our business also, where it is business. So,

00:14:45: it's actually sort of reflects the same interactions that you see in our own political

00:14:49: systems. And it is, the appellation system is a bit political, right? Like, we can't, like, it's

00:14:54: something that people do have to be active and engaged in. But equally, it can be really hard to,

00:15:01: like, insight change or for change to happen within the system, because of maybe the number of people

00:15:08: that are set to win something out of the way the state is quite.

00:15:13: In non-European wine regions, I've seen some interesting things with appellations. So,

00:15:16: Marlborough is a region that I know quite well, the New Zealand. So, Marlborough, there's all

00:15:22: sorts of problems in the sense that, you know, this has become famous of sauvignon blanc.

00:15:27: And most people play by the rules, but there's a whole bunch of people who kind of

00:15:31: hoover up, sort of like, grapes that are above yield cap or beyond rot threshold and sort of,

00:15:39: like, make cheap Marlborough sauvignon blanc out of those and then use the name Marlborough to

00:15:45: and flood the market with very cheap bulk wine that takes away from that collective brand of

00:15:51: Marlborough. So, there's a group of producers who've instituted this Appellation Marlborough wine,

00:15:56: including top people like Dogpoint and a load of other people. And I think that's interesting. So,

00:16:02: it's almost like a self-regulating system where there's an evolution that takes place within the

00:16:08: growers because they want to protect the name. So, rather than using rules, they just form a club

00:16:13: that then acts as sort of like a quality standard there. And I think that you see in

00:16:19: California, you see this emergence of avi-a's and a lot of, I mean, what you see is that there's

00:16:27: broad avi-a's and then this profusion of smaller avi-a's with a view to increasing the price of

00:16:34: the wines because they're from a more tightly delineated space. Yeah, yeah. And some of those

00:16:41: some of those Appellations have been silly, like Sonoma Coast means nothing,

00:16:47: but some are quite useful. Like West Sonoma Coast is interesting. Yeah, because Sonoma Coast is

00:16:53: like huge. The West Sonoma Coast, that's been very interesting. A Petalima Gap, I think, has been

00:16:57: quite interesting. And so, I think Russian River Valley is a very diverse, maybe not the ideal sort

00:17:04: of avi-a, but within that they've introduced this idea of neighborhoods, which I think is clever.

00:17:11: So, people trying to produce really good quality wines are often working within the constraints

00:17:17: of the system they're in. And often in these non-European wine countries, you'll see this

00:17:22: almost like a move towards, it's almost like an unstoppable move towards a sort of Appellation

00:17:29: system. It's like you can't resist it. This is what people want to do. And some people have got good

00:17:35: motivations because they believe that the wines from this Appellation have a distinctive quality.

00:17:41: Other people that like just make it tighter, have an avi-a and then will be like be able to charge

00:17:46: more for our wines. And I think the real test of the integrity in avi-a is whether you can back

00:17:52: it up scientifically. Do the wines from this particular patch of land taste different. And I

00:17:57: think in Argentina, the Gualtasari work and there's another GI that they've got there,

00:18:08: his name escapes me. They've done some really good scientific work on establishing these GIs. So,

00:18:15: they look and see how can we logically on the base of geology and climate delineate this GI. And

00:18:21: then let's go from there. Whereas in England, there was a ridiculous Sussex PDO, which is basically

00:18:29: the whole county of eastern west Sussex. The two counties, tiny different. It's meaningless because

00:18:37: this is within the Sussex PDO. You've got some really great

00:18:44: terroirs there. You've got some terrible terroirs. You should never plant grapes there. And it's like,

00:18:48: whereas in Champagne, you look at Champagne, the Appellation of Champagne delineates where in the

00:18:54: whole Champagne region, you can plant vineyards. It's only a few places within that whole area

00:18:59: that you can plant vineyards and get the Appellation. Whereas the Sussex one is ridiculous because you

00:19:05: can plant fine anywhere in Sussex. As long as you can meet minimum must weights in a few other

00:19:09: categories, it's like you get this Sussex PDO. And what it means is one people start getting

00:19:14: PDOs or AVA's or Appellations. It means that name is then protected. And then even if you exist in

00:19:21: Sussex and you're making wine, and you can't use that name, if you're not meeting their

00:19:31: particular criteria, and you might be making great wine, but that name has been taken away from

00:19:35: everyone. I think that's a big problem as well. Is that not hiding behind the place,

00:19:42: the wider, the greater Appellation. Now, this I think does tell me into the next thing, which is

00:19:49: people who come out of Appellation and actually become, they're more famous than the Appellation.

00:19:55: We've seen it with supertaskans, obviously. We see it a lot in the natural wine world,

00:20:00: particularly. Sometimes it's because the person doesn't want to be confined by the rules, which

00:20:06: are quite frankly not strict enough or not precise enough to make great wines. Or limiting.

00:20:14: Yeah, or limiting. Yeah. Sometimes they're one of their wines or all of their wines are disallowed

00:20:20: in a particular vintage. And then why would they want to receive Appellation again after that,

00:20:25: even if their wines are a bit more typical in another vintage. So bit by bit, we see a lot of

00:20:32: particularly well-known growers deciding, I might as well make, Avant de France. And I wonder if

00:20:37: this is a bit more of a European thing that we do the sense that some independent vineyards

00:20:42: don't feel the need to belong to the Appellation, but to like my, you know, like-minded other

00:20:49: vineyards who make the same sort of wines. I call it sort of mini-globalization. It's the opposite

00:20:53: of globalized style, which is about all about conformity. It's about individuals linking up

00:21:00: in their quest for uniqueness and perfection, if you like. And, you know, I think there are so many

00:21:07: great Ventefrances, Vienneteauvellas. I don't worry about Appellation anymore. It doesn't guarantee

00:21:15: me anything, but the grower and the way they work, these are the important things. But then,

00:21:20: as a consumer, using Appellation as a sort of like a guarantee of minimum quality, but maybe you

00:21:28: might be missing something by not ordering a Vienneteauvella or Avant de France on a wine list.

00:21:34: I agree, and I think this could be the perfect segue into the first wine. I don't know if it's,

00:21:40: if we're going to open the unblind wine or the blind wine. Doug's called a blind deference,

00:21:45: so we're going to do the blind one first. There we are. Some sound effects as well.

00:21:51: So, this is white or red? This is white. That's red, sorry. I love the way that Doug is going,

00:22:00: it's white. No, it's red. It's like, it's not a hard choice. It's like, it's kind of, I live in a binary world.

00:22:07: I feel like I know this wine. This is our first time on Just Another Wine podcast,

00:22:15: where we're tasting wine blind, and Emily and I are on the spot a little bit.

00:22:21: We're totally on there. It's a lot of blueberries. So many blueberries.

00:22:26: So, I'm getting those. I'm getting a little bit of this lovely spicy reductive character.

00:22:35: I'm getting some tar and pepper, and then really aromatic red fruits mainly.

00:22:44: I get a little blueberry. Cherry, raspberry, yeah, violet definitely.

00:22:48: They're like little fruits that you almost bite into in the gut. Yeah, very sweet. Yeah, well

00:22:53: berries basically. And the palate is supple and sleek. It's fresh. It's like a low alcohol wine,

00:23:00: I think. It's got this almost transparency. There's fruit there, but it's like it's not

00:23:05: invasive fruit. It's subtle fruit, and it's this beautiful energy and flow on the palate.

00:23:12: If you didn't know what it was, then you don't know what it is. Would you say,

00:23:15: "I think this wine exemplifies stupidity," whatever that means. I feel that it is true to what it is.

00:23:22: It's not funky. It's not weird. It's not supernatural. It could be recognized as a style in itself.

00:23:30: I think there's a sense of finesse and elegance and joy about this wine combined. It's like a...

00:23:37: It's got some of the pleasure of pinot noir, but it's not pinot noir. I don't think it's got...

00:23:42: It's got this chalky, grainy structure underneath. The texture is throwing me off this like the

00:23:48: sappleness of it. It doesn't like... Pinot noir is a bit grippy, maybe. No, it's not.

00:23:52: But there's almost like there's a transparency and delicacy, and there's almost like a little

00:23:58: bit of a hole in the mid-palette. Not a bad way, but there's like this gap. You go from the

00:24:02: slightly basing notes and the structure, and then you go gap and then treble. Yes. It's really

00:24:08: interesting. I think this is a beautiful wine. I love it. I'm wondering if it's vinifera or not,

00:24:12: but the aromatics are beautiful. Like, could be like grano or something. No, like something...

00:24:18: I don't know. Like Cabernet Franc... Pinot d'Anis. D'Anis, okay. It has a firmness to it,

00:24:24: which is interesting. Is it Cabernet Franc or it's Loire-like, I think. Definitely Loire-like.

00:24:29: Saying this with this degree of certainty that belies the fact that it can be totally...

00:24:37: But there's something about the viscosity. Loire-like is a sort of relative thing.

00:24:41: It's like you have different corners. No, but I agree. Or a couple of Spanish, New Spain.

00:24:45: Yeah, it could be, because the viscosity is throwing me off. There's like a...

00:24:49: There is like a density to this like this softness. It doesn't feel... I don't know. Again, I'm like

00:25:00: wondering if the soil is... If you were to rewind what we're talking about in a previous episode

00:25:04: and describe what you feel the soil type is. And I don't mean like don't say the soil type,

00:25:10: whatever, but the way it feels in your mouth in terms of the texture. I think Jamie got pretty

00:25:16: close. He said chalky. There is a sort of crunchy, like, you know, like putting some pebbles in your

00:25:23: mouth sort of element to the spine. It's a freshness and it's almost like... It's not high acid,

00:25:30: but it's got that limestone feel around the edge of the mouth. It's got the depth of it.

00:25:35: There's like a tangy... You feel it on the edge of the tongue a bit, yeah?

00:25:38: And the aftertaste does... I think... But I'd say it's a warm climate wine.

00:25:42: From the lower... From limestone. From limestone made in a really sympathetic way, so that it's

00:25:48: like it's picked early. But you get the generosity in the mid-palette. You get the silkiness,

00:25:54: but then you get this lovely textural element. I mean, it could be... I mean, most limestone

00:26:00: anyways, like Kaila limestone as well, right? Like it could be...

00:26:03: So could it even be from... Ah, no. Could it be from Burganya? Could it be from Burgundy?

00:26:15: What? Like a natural producer, maybe? It could be, like, because it's...

00:26:23: But like maybe more northern. Like it could be because of that sort of blue, black fruit that

00:26:30: is there. Yeah, yeah. Malsene or kudoser or something like that. Or it's going to be something

00:26:35: annoying, like a red wine from champagne. It's not gamay, is it? It's not gamay.

00:26:39: Do you listen to it? You can't tell, but my facial expression is perfectly black.

00:26:43: You can't remember. He's got face poker face on. Yes.

00:26:46: And Doug plays a lot of poker, by the way. Can you borrow some more?

00:26:48: Doug makes half his salary from poker. I play with wine corks, not for real.

00:26:55: He's got his own ring. Go on, can we have a little bit more of that? Of course you can.

00:27:01: It's a very pleasurable wine, anyway. We're really enjoying it. It is.

00:27:04: Here we go. But I think I feel... Yes, yes, yes. I think I feel European. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'm wrong.

00:27:14: I could be anywhere from like Burganya to Spain. I don't think it's a ganache.

00:27:23: I don't think it's a ganache. I think it's a limestone. I think it's a limestone.

00:27:26: Generally. Yeah. I don't mean... It's not got that brightness. It's got a different sort of brightness.

00:27:31: The brightness of... The heat's not there, right? Because I went to my head, I was like, "Could it be...

00:27:35: could it be like Monsent or something?" And then I was like, "Ah, but it doesn't feel like it has

00:27:40: the weight of that either." Or could it be... No, not Ribera Sacra. Not...

00:27:48: Somewhere in Galicia, but then... No, no, no. I don't know if it's a limestone there.

00:27:53: It's most not a limestone, but it's beautiful and ethereal and quite delightful.

00:27:58: It could be a dark grape and light toroir, or it could be a light grape and dark toroir.

00:28:03: So, you know, it's that sort of like fun balance. I still think Pinot donis for me.

00:28:11: Do you? Yeah, yeah. It's got that sort of... There's a certain pepperiness to it, which is...

00:28:17: I don't think it's Pinot donis, but I am... Okay, could I... I'd like a moment. We'll have to...

00:28:24: A dark grape and a light toroir. So beautifully textural.

00:28:31: And this glass is perfectly... It's like lifting, lifting, lifting out.

00:28:38: The darkest tasting from the Zolto Bordeaux glass, I think.

00:28:44: Oh, it must be a Bordeaux then. No, no. It's the Bordeaux glass, and Emily and I drinking from the

00:28:50: Zolto Universal. Yeah, but also with this, there's still some tannin there, actually.

00:28:55: There's quite grainy and tannin, I guess. But you know, sometimes Cabernet

00:28:59: Franck has that Pinot noir expression, right? It's not quite as vegetal as maybe you might expect,

00:29:05: but if you think of like... Or could even be Malbec from the noir.

00:29:10: And if he's given us a... Yeah, that's such a... What a cot. Yes. I feel like sometimes they're a bit

00:29:15: more wild though, but like actually the violety note... Yeah, the violety note could well be

00:29:21: something like Malbec. Malbec tends to have maybe higher acidity and less tannin, believe it or not,

00:29:28: because Malbec, not all Malbec isn't Argentinian. I mean, I would say look at the sort of...

00:29:38: I think there's a certain, again, verticality to the wine, the lift of it.

00:29:43: Oh, so we're talking about granite then, are we? Ah, I might have missed it.

00:29:48: Yeah, but then where are we? I think maybe I got a bit stuck with the...

00:29:52: When you're blind tasting, will we stick with your first impressions?

00:29:55: Or then maybe it's Bodily.

00:29:57: Oh, you're sort of backtracking now.

00:30:00: Let's do the reveal, Doug. Yeah, we'll do the reveal.

00:30:05: We've done a lot of guessing around this. Yes.

00:30:08: I'm quite excited to see what this is. Take the sock off. It's quite a nice sock.

00:30:12: So, son ferre means without compare. It's a wine from Alebrouge, which is savoie.

00:30:20: It's actually right next to Beloise, Vignard. Montes and Etre du Ladoi, which is like a really rare

00:30:28: local grape. Montes, of course. Montes has a very particular character, but Etre du Ladoi has

00:30:34: quite a lot of tannin. Was this you going back to the Grand Gé conversation that we should be

00:30:39: remembering that to the Ketiz wine? I was cluing you in before.

00:30:43: Doug, this is a remarkable wine. So Etre du Ladoi is a frati, yeah?

00:30:49: Yes, a very rare savoie. This is a beautiful, beautiful wine. Thank you for sharing this.

00:30:54: Thank you. To be fair, we're on...

00:30:57: If we got this blind, we'd be like, we're in the Hote Sauvoie.

00:31:02: limestone scree, whatever, so the limestone bit is right because it gives the sort of finesse

00:31:09: that you talked about. I think Millarwhals is the best. And there's a grip from Mondos which is

00:31:14: quite a, can be quite a powerful tannic grape variety as well, but we tend to think of it as

00:31:20: like a zura grape variety, it isn't at all. Mondos can be, I think of it more rony almost. Yeah,

00:31:26: almost like yeah, there's, yeah, the theories that either comes from northern Italy or the Rhona,

00:31:31: or it's certainly sort of related to other quite darker grape varieties, and yet it has the freshness

00:31:36: of, I would say, mountain terroir. It's alabros, so it's not a, it's not an appellation wine, it's an

00:31:43: IGP. Yeah, because it's interesting, because I think that Mondos often for me has this almost

00:31:49: rich chocolatey, ripe character, and this has brought this into restraint and balance, but

00:31:55: you're getting that sort of sweet core fruit that means it's very hard to place anywhere else.

00:32:00: That we were struggling to place this one. Now he says, this is Mondos, then I can be like, yes,

00:32:06: okay, that makes sense in the framework of my very limited experience of trying Mondos, but it's not

00:32:11: a grape variety that I feel that I could necessarily pick blind, because it's always got some of the

00:32:15: things, gammy. What did retail price of this be? Retail 28, 30. That's fantastic, that's very good.

00:32:23: So it's made in terracotta, jars. Oh, that's interesting, because I almost like you can,

00:32:29: yeah, that chalkiness. That's the suppleness. You can sense the, I really think this is, this is a

00:32:34: sensational wine. I've had a lot of farming, but only, and only five years old, the vine, so replanted.

00:32:41: So I always wanted to show this during our sort of terroir class, and say, so much to the

00:32:50: personality, it's such a short space of time. And why? Because by dynamic farming, it's like

00:32:56: low yields, hands on, and a wine making style, they're just let's, you know, it's not forcing it,

00:33:03: it's not pressing it, just lets the juice express itself. And yeah, I think it does beautifully.

00:33:09: It's a really great wine. I think actually the Loire guess is maybe as close as you can get to it,

00:33:15: because of the limestone, but yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't place it. I was just like, is it,

00:33:20: it can't be kept in if wrong, but it feels too polished, it feels too viscous, it feels too dense,

00:33:24: but then it was like, Grolo, it's not wild enough. It was really hard to place, but really a very

00:33:30: interesting wine to try blind, without any preconceptions of the variety as well. So I think,

00:33:36: especially for me, when I don't know a great variety very well, I've only had a few examples,

00:33:41: it's much easier to make assumptions about it, you know? Yeah, I mean, what's interesting, I mean,

00:33:46: there's a blend as well, I suppose, but it's very naked, there's nothing added, it's a, it's a natural

00:33:52: wine, and yet it feels like quite straight in terms of the, you know, there's no, there's no,

00:33:58: no funkiness, no edges, no raw element to it. It's very pure. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you.

00:34:05: Thank you for putting us on the spot on, I was about to say on camera, but on tape.

00:34:13: On microphone. Yeah, on mic. So, so let's move on to the second wine we've chosen for this episode,

00:34:20: which is actually a, probably not many bottles of this still survive, it's the debut vintage of

00:34:28: D'Mattassa, and this is Tom Lobby, when he was still involved with Sam Harrop then actually,

00:34:33: this is a 2002 vintage when they made just one wine, it's 12.5% alcohol, old vines, and 500 meters

00:34:43: of altitude, and I believe this is a varietal carignon, it is, and I bought six bottles of this

00:34:51: from Sam for 15 euros each, or was it 15 pounds each? I remember. I don't know, were you living in

00:34:59: France at the time? No, we part of the EU then. So I think I've got more and more left off this.

00:35:07: I think it's time when we could easily. So what's interesting about this is this is actually a

00:35:13: van de table, and so the vintage and grape variety aren't declared on the bottle or the label,

00:35:23: although it does say on the back that 15 months of elevage bottled in 2003, so you can work back

00:35:28: from that to the vintage. But this is an interesting thing, this whole notion of

00:35:35: stepping outside appellations, in the past you really got punished for it, like van de France,

00:35:40: you couldn't talk about vintage or grape variety, but now I think that the rules have relaxed the

00:35:46: point that you can actually mention the grape variety and the vintage on the label for van de

00:35:51: France, which I think is a positive thing, it's like it's recognizing that some people might want

00:35:56: to choose to work in a place, but without adhering to the rules of the place, and then

00:36:03: they have the choice to do that, but they're not handicapped to the point that

00:36:08: their wines are unsellable because they can't put any information on them.

00:36:13: Yeah, I've got a, I'm sure Tom told me an interesting story about the vintage in which

00:36:20: this comes from, which is Carlson the Roussillon, and he said that one day the mayor called all

00:36:28: the local growers together, and this is like a hotbed of brilliance and innovation, I mean all

00:36:34: this sort of like, it's got some of the most incredible terroir, like just an old vine, my

00:36:39: god old vines, and the mayor said excitedly, I've got some great news, we're grubbing up

00:36:44: the last of the 150 year old Grenache grape vines, and all the growers looked aghast, he said,

00:36:51: yeah no, gonna plant Cabernet Sauvignon instead, and it made me think that Carineaux, years ago,

00:36:59: some very famous wine writers who should know better called Carineaux the ugly duckling grape

00:37:06: variety, only, was that Jamie Good? No, it was not one of these, no it was a someone even, I wouldn't

00:37:14: say more famous, but anyway, you'd know, and actually there was more than one wine, one wine

00:37:25: wine writer, can't say that, and yeah so Carineaux was a workhorse grape variety, it was only fit

00:37:34: for blending, it was only fit for cheap wines, and yet like over the years it's been proved that Carineaux

00:37:42: is one of the most appropriate grape varieties for the long and old Crucian, it thrives on

00:37:49: old schistis sort of slatey soils, and when you've got 120, 130 year old vines which have survived

00:38:00: all sorts, why would you rip them out? Just because Syrah is for example a more

00:38:08: fashionable grape variety of Cabernet Sauvignon, it turned out that Syrah, particularly in the

00:38:12: Longanoch, was only good for blending, only good for being part of a blend, and that Carineaux

00:38:19: should really dominate on the particular terroir of the Longanoch Crucian, and probably about

00:38:26: 10 years hence, it was then realised that Carineaux was actually a really good grape variety and could

00:38:32: make world-class wines, but the snobbery, and again it's an appellation thing saying this wine you

00:38:39: know should have a maximum of 30% Carineaux or 40% Carineaux, you know is crazy because what's

00:38:45: going to happen in the end, you have to change it, and if you change it, like what price appellation

00:38:49: if it's constantly changing, well it's probably a good idea that it does. Well no I quite appreciate

00:38:54: some appellations have shown flexibility, like Chianti Classico used to be like you couldn't be

00:39:00: Chianti Classico if you're 100% San Giovese, and that changed a few years back for the better

00:39:06: way of thinking, which means that you bring more of the top producers into the fold, you know

00:39:11: ultimately you don't mind if some people are going IGT Toscana for some wines in that range,

00:39:18: but you really want them to be focusing on you know building into that collective you know brand

00:39:25: equity of Chianti Classico, the top producers the most ambitious people and often they're the ones

00:39:31: that would have gone 100% San Giovese. And should we talk about this wine now though? Yes because I

00:39:37: think this is actually really interesting because this is a wine that I bought 20 years ago,

00:39:45: and it hasn't been stored in totally ideal conditions all the way, but it's still really good,

00:39:54: this is like this is like a and this is obviously Tom's style would have changed a little bit

00:40:00: since then, I think this for me this has shown you a slightly high extraction more traditional

00:40:06: winemaking style back in 2020, 2002, and you've got a little reduction here in this wine still,

00:40:14: it's a 20 year old wine but it's got some reductive qualities, but also it's got fruit

00:40:19: maybe also its benefit as well for its longevity. I'm getting the slightly reductive

00:40:24: development on the nose but this is an amazing color and amazing fruit intensity still, this is

00:40:29: this is Grand Cru I think. It's getting some nice, the umami is there but it's not dominating and

00:40:38: there's still structure, there's still acidity, there's still some tan in there that's like quite

00:40:42: intriguing where I'm like oh I actually want to drink this. I think what you have here is a phenomenal

00:40:48: terroir and then like old vines and a great variety which is highly underrated and does have the

00:40:54: capacity to age really well. We've had on our list like 15, 20, 30 year old carinol, it's a sort of

00:41:02: wonderful thing, it doesn't sort of oxidize as maybe some great varieties might like a relash,

00:41:09: you know it's a it keeps its structure. Not expecting it to be this fresh and focused and

00:41:15: it's got development in a nice way but it's still very much alive. There's some tan in here.

00:41:22: Yeah yeah I think Tom you know Tom is quite the anarchist as well right like we talked about

00:41:28: that earlier but um you know he's he's quite a strong character and I I really can't imagine a

00:41:35: world where he adheres to other people's rules right like I just I think he is somebody that wants to

00:41:42: captain his own ship and he wants to be able to guide that ship on the route that he wants to take

00:41:48: it on and I and I think this is the one of the benefits of stepping outside of the appellation

00:41:55: system is not having to adhere to these rules just really like leaning into your expression of the

00:42:02: land that you're working with and not being held back by do I need to think about am I going to

00:42:08: achieve the right ripeness or the right ABV to be able to deliver that do I need to age it for

00:42:14: x amount of months because actually if you're working with maybe the viewpoint of stewardship

00:42:20: not just from a farming perspective but also from a winemaking perspective and you want to guide that

00:42:25: wine along on your interpretation of what that journey of the wine should look like

00:42:30: um some of those sets of rules don't always make sense every year it could get stickier

00:42:36: in the coming years it's like what happens now with climate chaos how is it going to be when

00:42:43: we get these more radical shifts in weather patterns which are going to dictate completely

00:42:50: different levels of alcohol acidity fruit expression all of this sort of stuff like if you

00:42:55: have to produce a wine there's this amount this percentage that tastes a bit like this like we're

00:43:01: going to start to see different expressions and different identities from these places

00:43:06: I think we already are though but like yeah but is the appellation system flexible enough to allow

00:43:13: it no it's going to collapse it's going to collapse because it can but also like think of all the

00:43:17: individual I mean you know how many individuals make wine in a certain appellation but they all

00:43:23: have different tastes don't they like are they making wine to conform to the appellation or like

00:43:28: Tom is what he loves to drink influencing the way he makes wine so I would suggest that Tom

00:43:35: loves Austrian wines he loves wines from the Jorah probably um and I'm also thinking that

00:43:42: Austrian growers in the Bergenland pay go to the Jorah and pay homage to the wines the whites and

00:43:49: the reds and this so influences the way they make wine so they go completely against what their

00:43:56: parents and what the appellation does but they think it's the right way to go because

00:44:00: the wine is the reflection of your personality and your preferences why be

00:44:07: hidebound by appellation they may still make some wines to conform to appellation but this is not

00:44:13: what they feel wine is about so I think Tom over over the years I mean you've tasted you make

00:44:19: tastes of red wines they're light they're fresh they're incredibly low in alcohol you know they're

00:44:25: very pretty they're floral you know they don't necessarily make you think oh well that's what

00:44:30: russian is or used to be but maybe this is what russian will be maybe a lot of people in the

00:44:37: region are thinking you know what I want to make a wine that I drink myself and enjoy and there's a

00:44:42: bit of pleasure in it I'm going to change the way I make wine I may go for whole cluster fermentations

00:44:48: I may go semi-carbonic we've seen a lot of that in the long and old russian that wine make methods

00:44:53: of changing we may harvest earlier we may harvest on taste rather than ripeness I think this is like

00:45:00: true all over the world I don't think people are now thinking like I'm going to make a wine typical

00:45:04: of AOC russian. No when I taste matassa I think this tastes like matassa. Yes that's what I think.

00:45:12: Big issue coming which is that once a name has been chosen as an appellation it takes that name

00:45:22: out of circulation so you can't say where you made the wine from and a lot of wines that skip the

00:45:28: appellation the consumer is like where does this come from they can't say where it comes from because

00:45:34: that name is protected now by you know the PDO regulations and I think that's a big problem I

00:45:43: think this is as increasingly a problem as we enter into this time of you know having to revise

00:45:50: things because of climate chaos and this warming trend and regions that have traditionally been

00:45:57: fixated on certain varieties those varieties may no longer be a faithful lens with which to interpret

00:46:04: those terroirs and so people playing with other varieties they can't use the name of the place so

00:46:09: it's like you're you've got this big problem coming up which is that you know realistically

00:46:16: we've got to think about revising the set of varieties we use and also in terms of sustainability

00:46:22: this is another discussion is like vitus vernifera is susceptible to diseases that mean you need to

00:46:28: spray a lot of times every year that's not super sustainable and now we have a raft of

00:46:34: resistant varieties the rest of your Pwe varieties and they're coming through

00:46:38: that have the potential to make really interesting wines but unless they get the appellation it's like

00:46:44: people are taking a hit financially by growing those varieties because they don't get the

00:46:50: appellation so they have to sell them at a low price and we need the experience and the time to

00:46:54: actually see how they perform and that's not going to happen and this is enough buying from enough

00:46:59: growers to even see if they actually make that not having the appellation is a big disincentive

00:47:05: for many growers because if you're selling grapes for instance and we've got to recognize a lot of

00:47:10: regions there's a grower culture where people grow and then sell grapes they don't get the appellation

00:47:14: but they take a big financial hit so this is this is this like we we're seeing a revolution in

00:47:21: vineyards because we have to have a revolution because you know in the light of climate chaos

00:47:26: and forming trends and increased disease pressure is simply not sustainable in some regions to be

00:47:35: growing vitus vernifera for basic wines you know where you can't take the care you know that you

00:47:43: need to because economics don't allow it so we need to start thinking about how do appellations

00:47:50: evolve do we still need them I mean there's so many things that's good about them but they're so

00:47:55: restrictive as well and also can I just throw some a little extra cherry on top of the cake on that

00:48:01: what happens now with climate chaos in regions that are now no longer suitable for producing wine

00:48:08: and those people are farming grapes how do we form new appellations and relocate those people

00:48:15: well because that's something that's also going to become a topic you have to remember that that

00:48:19: and one of the problems of appellations is is there was a vote let's say in the longer doc for

00:48:23: example to plant syrah when it was not appropriate climate for syrah you know because it arrived

00:48:29: into like 14 or 15 percent so now there's a vote to plant the original grapes in the region pick

00:48:36: from noir as a classic example and other grapes and also also we see a rediscovery of grapefruits

00:48:44: because of the phloxer there's a bottleneck so phloxer in the late 19th early 20th century meant

00:48:48: that lots of vineyards got abandoned there's also lots of varieties got abandoned then as well

00:48:54: and so like playmont a co-op and in some way we know done some really good things it imports

00:48:59: all the man's saying yeah yeah it's done some really good things rediscovering varieties from the past

00:49:06: that were discarded because they didn't get ripen off and now they're perfect you know

00:49:10: but also the nurseries are now sort of planting out these things because they realize that you

00:49:13: know if a great variety ripens at 10 10.5 percent you just blend it with some of these other things

00:49:20: so as an interim measure nature's nature's alcohol reduction yes yeah exactly blending is a really

00:49:25: good way of doing it gives you chance also to then to replant you know maybe north facing vineyards

00:49:32: different part of the appellation or the region but the appellation appellation doesn't pivot

00:49:37: quickly enough to sort of recognize the pressures that are upon it yeah climate crisis is a major

00:49:42: pressure so how quickly can you convert and turn things around maybe three or four years if you're

00:49:48: lucky but you can start making start the process of making different wines pretty soon. I mean it's

00:49:56: interesting to me Bordeaux for example right because especially as somebody who really tries to

00:50:03: champion artists and producers and and I'm quite I lean let's say left in the wine world into quite

00:50:10: a lot of natural wines but I don't make myself dogmatic about it but still I'm often a little bit

00:50:16: skeptical sometimes around the Bordeaux model that's so widely widely spreadly used that or

00:50:23: widespread widespread use use of it of often you go to a lot of sellers and the winemaking

00:50:30: and the vessels and everything is very formulaic and often quite similar to the neighbours and the

00:50:38: wines are very designed to be appealing to let's say a wider audience palette for me when I've been

00:50:48: to Bordeaux often it feels a little bit like going to Disneyland for wine drinkers just in terms of

00:50:53: how it feels energy wise but then to for that region to be one of the most innovative in terms of

00:51:00: considering climate change and and climate chaos to permit completely new varietals into the

00:51:08: appellation system I think is kind of very fascinating for me and well the strength they have is

00:51:14: their blends so suddenly if you're Bordeaux in much better shape facing climate chaos then

00:51:20: burgundy but still to be like we're gonna but it's still to go we're gonna use alberino all of a

00:51:25: sudden right like national yeah like and some hybrids as well and just bring it in it's just like

00:51:31: I that I I think that's kind of cool and I think this same flexibility would be an amazing tool

00:51:40: for other appellations to actually consider what are we doing here does this make sense

00:51:45: how do we incentivize that and obviously again it all like comes back to that same thing of like

00:51:50: policy EU support you know like how how does that change but I think around the margins it's like

00:51:59: for super interesting wines made by committed growers they go off grid they go IGP or they go

00:52:08: band of France that's kind of cool we're good with that because we follow those wines not because

00:52:13: of the appellations but for the mainstream wine industry I think what would be really helpful

00:52:17: would be to have people in charge of the appellations who are forward thinking open minded

00:52:23: because if we can resurrect appellations make them more flexible make them more fit for purpose

00:52:28: that's good for everyone in the wine world and one thing I was thinking of was is I spent quite a

00:52:34: bit of time in in Canada yeah and in Ontario the VQA system and that's problematic because if you

00:52:45: don't pass the taste test for the VQA which is like buyers basically they can't be producers so it's

00:52:52: kind of buyers for the LCBO who do the taste test and you've got this young wine region that's developing

00:52:58: and evolving and you have the power of these these taste testers to decide your wine isn't

00:53:06: typical and there's some very notable producers who suffer from this now in in Europe you could

00:53:12: just declassify and sell your wine still but in Canada there's a big tax break if you're in the

00:53:16: VQA so basically the fact that some junior people of the LCBO are tasting your wines and saying they're

00:53:23: not typical even though this is a very young region who knows what's typical for my agro

00:53:28: is problematic because it costs the producers quite a lot of money if they fail the VQA so I

00:53:34: think that's an appellation system that needs more flexibility I love the fact that VQA exists

00:53:40: because it's good because you have to differentiate between wines that are made from Canadian ground

00:53:45: grapes and they in Canada have this thing which is in a cellar in Canada international Canadian blends

00:53:51: where they they have famous Canadian brands with wines on the shelves in the LCBO which is like 25%

00:53:58: Niagara grapes and 75% bulk imported wines that looks exactly like Canadian wines has a Canadian

00:54:05: name on the label and I think that that that's a problem for that industry that they've got a face

00:54:10: you know so VQA is very helpful in differentiating the wines that are uniquely Canadian from these

00:54:17: weird blends so we're saying that appellation should be stricter but fairer at the same time

00:54:22: yes yes I think that the appellations are great we've grown up with them we still venerate them

00:54:27: they're still useful they carry a sense of locality and also they they help to enshrine this notion of

00:54:33: terroir which we love so much so there's so much going for them it's just like there's so many

00:54:39: miscarriages of justice that I think rankle with us as wine lovers it's like guys come on

00:54:46: that happens when people start being political and mean so if people or individual individualistic

00:54:52: right like when it's self-serving the strength of an appellation is the diversity of styles

00:54:57: the fact that it culminates so many individuals and yet still be within the appellation because

00:55:01: they're just expressing different aspects of terroir and making different decisions as wine

00:55:06: makers always do but there have to be limits there's a producer I'm not sure we can talk about him

00:55:11: anymore from the luau valley was working in san ser and those wines were like really I really like

00:55:20: those wines but I thought having san ser and the label was a problem but we can use it we can use

00:55:24: different producers we can use alexander band for example but the other is that

00:55:30: some ways it's like you don't know this but this producer still had the appellation right

00:55:34: oh yeah but I thought there's a problem there because if you're looking for a san ser and you

00:55:40: come across the unnamed producers wines it's like this is not going to meet your expectations of

00:55:44: san ser so the the brand promise of san ser is broken there so in some ways those those wines are

00:55:50: better out of the appellation it's like IGT or sorry sorry um IGP yeah um I think because they're not

00:55:59: it's like for a normal person going to a restaurant ordering a san ser gets one of these

00:56:05: unnamed wines um that's going to be problematic and this is the sommelier says you must realize

00:56:13: that you know what you're ordering you know so I think that there has to be that level of like

00:56:18: once you put an appellation label it's a brand promise so try to meet that brand promise but

00:56:24: don't you think some of these individuals would do it for encroger les autres you know like as to say

00:56:30: okay if my wine can get in like maybe more people will be a bit more adventurous I mean it's it's

00:56:36: no coincidence so I'm so brief for you for me are probably two of the most conservative appellations

00:56:42: in the whole of France and the wines are so much of a style that it's as if like no one

00:56:49: could express themselves yeah it's very sterile yeah yeah and and the farming is sterile and the

00:56:54: wine making is sterile so someone does completely the opposite in every regard are they pushing the

00:57:00: envelope or are they taking the mickey yeah I mean they're not taking the mickey this is what they

00:57:07: believe but I mean Jamie's right in the sense that you know if I gave that wine to someone

00:57:13: they would be shocked yes and shockers can be good because they're jolt to your wake but it's also bad

00:57:20: because you're good you're probably not going to want to drink it if you ordered a so sake because

00:57:24: you believed it was going to be because you wanted a slightly neutral so yeah slightly little bit

00:57:28: of aromatic yeah yeah so so bearing in mind that the limited time we have left available how do we

00:57:35: wrap this up we've had so many interesting discussions with lots of threads we've as usual

00:57:42: yeah so how do we how do we conclude this do we think maybe we should have a little vote who

00:57:47: thinks appellations on the whole are a good thing and should be preserved who thinks they should be

00:57:52: scrapped so those who vote for for preserving appellations raise your hand now oh it's just one

00:58:01: it's just one it's me but I'm gonna put my hand to both cheers for democracy uh don't you're against

00:58:08: scrapping it I'm again well I'm against if I had to pick one I find that appellations breed

00:58:13: you're gonna side with anyone you say you don't understand that no I just I actually would raise

00:58:17: my hand to both questions because I don't think it's a binary answer I actually think they have

00:58:23: they serve a place but they don't serve the only place no there should be room for both I think

00:58:28: there's room for appellation wine there's room for high quality wine that's non-appellation wine

00:58:33: and it's like we need to find a way to coexist without yeah and suggesting there's no quality

00:58:39: if it's not in the appellation no and also about it not being about bureaucracy right which is so

00:58:45: much what it's about I think you said this is my problem if people behave well yes and they they

00:58:51: performed well and they were good humans and they were open-minded then the appellations have worked

00:58:56: fantastically the problem is that people get political and they're they're silly but I think

00:59:00: bureaucracy generates conformity and I'm you know like as a anti-authoritarian I'm very much against

00:59:07: like people having to fill in forms and prove that what they do is right when what they do is

00:59:12: right I can see from the point of view of consumers that appellation is a very useful thing because

00:59:18: it starts them on the right journey and it may not be reliable but it could improve there is room

00:59:24: for improvement there but instinctively intuitively I think appellation is a flawed system great and I

00:59:31: think of it from point of view of the growers who want to express the best of what they can do yeah

00:59:36: because for you you and me the three of us we don't need the appellation system at all but there's a

00:59:44: lot of people that are like just going into places like I'm trying to find something I can grasp on

00:59:49: too like what the hell does all of this mean? Yeah and the fact is that I know there's a lot of wine

00:59:54: producers who are using that fact to just like scam people by making terrible wines with their

01:00:04: famous appellation on the label and it's the biggest scam in wine you know it's so disappointing

01:00:10: that people will think you know I've heard of this famous appellation shabby I want to try a shabby

01:00:16: you buy a shabby if you don't know what you're buying you're going to buy something quite disappointing

01:00:21: the unofficial answer is we're all in favor of not having an appellation system

01:00:25: I think it was quick for me the other day so I always felt this when when Sumeli asked me for a

01:00:32: Gavi de Gavi and I said we've got a Gavi that's got to be Gavi de Gavi and I said so good they

01:00:38: named it twice almost I said what is that like a superior appellation it's just like a brand

01:00:44: marketing sort of thing yeah I'm sure they're good wines and Gavi de Gavi but there's amazing wines

01:00:50: in Gavi so what what's what's the big idea and I think when we come down to like the marketing

01:00:57: element is defining what the appellation is it's sort of like it's losing the point of the wine I

01:01:01: think I think we can't finish it any better than that right thank you Ducky yeah this is really

01:01:09: so this is such a good conversation tonight it was so great to be in the presence of Ducky yeah

01:01:13: yeah I'm good at finishing things apparently clean bottles of wine parties

01:01:19: thank you to you both that was a brilliant conversation and looking forward to the next one

01:01:27: thank you um go on and should you choose to to follow us more then you can find us on instagram

01:01:35: and @justanotherwinepodcast that's the warm word that's correct I'm Emily Harman thank you I'm

01:01:42: Jamie Good and I'm Doug Greg until next time cheers cheers